Hello...I am not a graphic artist

[Jeff]

Just venting from dealing with yet another "Graphic artist" that apparently has not learned much about real world designing. I won't bore anyone with the details...I know many others here deal with this as well.

Unfortunately (unless they are learning things here) there are probably many on this site with a "degree" that know nothing about good design/layout.

I just grow tired of hearing "I have a degree in graphic arts" (RED FLAG!!!!) Then they email you some atrocious piece of work with tons of basic blunders. Many of the ones I have dealt with get offended when I offer some corrective thoughts.

I just added this to my Facebook page. Jeff's Lettering


Me lettering my first shop truck close to 28 years ago.

The names will not mean much too many people...but I like to give thanks/acknowledgement to the sign painters that inspired/mentored me.

Jeff

 

[SignManiac]

Frustrating yes. Only going to get worse I'm afraid. A tool, computer, or printer does not make a person an artist. Creativity and visual perception can't be bought over the counter or online.

 

[nikdoobs]

this is why you hire a graphic artist based on their portfolio, not their resume.

 

[Marlene]

some times it is just a little bad kerning that makes it clear some one skipped school the day they taught this. this is one of my cringe worthy designer produced logos I have to work with. the Your is just part of the logo but the kerning between the "Y" and the "o" is where you really see a lack of knowleadge

 

[Jeff]

Kerning is one of my biggest pet-peeves when it comes to the simplest of basic layout...although...I must admit I’ve had a few kerning issues get by me...Stupid computers!

 

[John Butto]

Was that an El Camino.

 

[nikdoobs]

Yeah, that el camino is badass. You still got it?

 

[PRS Bryan]

So let me get this straight.......................

A person that has 28 years of experience is a "better" designer than some one who just completed a four-year degree?

Who would have guessed! Clearly a design education is a complete waste of time.

I am sure that when you first started, you were producing work that would put graphic art professors to shame.

I suspect being a graphic prodigy is a double-edge sword. Sure you are producing world class work right away, but it must be difficult is not growing over the past 28 years.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

I've been hand lettering 39 years, & not learned enough or well enough but one thing that I have learned is when ya see this misinformed novice stuff, use it to fuel your own drive instead of slowing ya down.

It will always be there & more then likely it will be bad to worse for sometime, kinda like when ya see a sold job that maybe you bid on or was thinking about, use that frustration to go out & sell another customer & hunt for more.

Yes there is some outstanding Graphic Artists in the real world & yes some may never have used a brush or learned through normal channels.

One more thing regards to this lesson is ...Negative sales do not work ... so when ya run across a novice error best ya can do is show the difference let them choose & move on in a positive manner, if they do not get it or care to, oh well you know best & offered.

 

[player]

If your client's kids did the design, shut up and take the money. Never critique (they will take it as "insult") a design done by your client's kids.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

The same argument can be made about people buying printers and plotters and thinking that that earned them the qualifications to be a sign designer. Degree, nor equipment does a designer make. And to your point, it takes years of study, and experience. I was lettering from when I was about 14 or 15. But I went to college, too.

If so many sign designers are amazing, and so many graphic artists are awful, can someone explain why there's so many wraps on the road that are complete disasters?

I certainly get your frustration, but be careful about painting with too broad of a stroke. The percentage of qualified sign designers is probably pretty small. I get it from the other side from guys who got truck wraps and brands created from sign designers, and it's frankly just sad to me that they wasted so much money on something destined to fail.

 

[nikdoobs]

If so many sign designers are amazing, and so many graphic artists are awful, can someone explain why there's so many wraps on the road that are complete disasters?

Client feedback. How many times have you designed something for a client that looks great and then they destroy your layout with changes that they think will look better.

 

[Jeff]

"Was that an El Camino." "Yeah, that el camino is badass. You still got it?" No and No That was a 1979 Ford Rancharo GT...last year they made them for what it's worth.

It always amazes me that when you post something here someone feels the need to attack you. I can only presume you hold a graphics art degree?

“I am sure that when you first started, you were producing work that would put graphic art professors to shame.”
“I suspect being a graphic prodigy is a double-edge sword. Sure you are producing world class work right away, but it must be difficult is not growing over the past 28 years.”

I never said I was a master right out of the box or a prodigy. I rather proudly display some of my early work in my portfolio...it’s some of the nastiest color choices/layouts you’ll ever see.

We all had to start somewhere...



When I turned 15 my dad (who dabbled with lettering and cartoon characters in the 50’s) bought me some brushes and one-shot, taught me what he knew. I learned more by looking at sign work that I liked and practiced my *** off. Eventually I went to work for Avery Sign Co. and learned a tremendous amount there, and then I ventured off on my own.

I am not the best, but I think I can hold my own. I think I continue to learn and grow every day.

I just think that someone that has a graphics art degree should be able to handle basic design skills. A lot of them that I come in contact with do not.

 

[CES020]

Timely post on Mashable this morning. I'm sure these were designed by someone pretty high up in the design food chain.....

http://mashable.com/2014/09/15/colombian-cycling-uniform/

 

[GAC05]

Timely post on Mashable this morning. I'm sure these were designed by someone pretty high up in the design food chain.....

http://mashable.com/2014/09/15/colombian-cycling-uniform/

I was watching this blow up last night.
Funny stuff

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Client feedback. How many times have you designed something for a client that looks great and then they destroy your layout with changes that they think will look better.

Truthfully, very rarely. More likely we're told 'you're the experts - whatever you think'. When I first started, that definitely wasn't the case. But we've made it a point to educate our clients and give them valid rationale to trust our judgement. Many times, this is where sign companies can fall short. Clients don't trust them because they haven't given them many valid reasons to accept their recommendations or their expertise. Marketing your own expertise is just as important of a job as marketing theirs. Thought leadership goes a long way towards establishing credibility as well.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Truthfully, very rarely. More likely we're told 'you're the experts - whatever you think'. When I first started, that definitely wasn't the case. But we've made it a point to educate our clients and give them valid rationale to trust our judgement. Many times, this is where sign companies can fall short. Clients don't trust them because they haven't given them many valid reasons to accept their recommendations or their expertise. Marketing your own expertise is just as important of a job as marketing theirs. Thought leadership goes a long way towards establishing credibility as well.

Very nicely said Dan.My feelings exactly.

The moment I smell even a hint of me not having total control over the whole project I am not interested and move on.
These type of clients are usually weeded out in the initial interview.

I will make an exception to my rule for really big big bucks though.

 

[John Butto]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Do not think it matters what someone calls themselves, be it graphic designer, sign maker / painter, computer artist, or a Marketer.

 

[Rick]

Just venting from dealing with yet another
"Graphic artist" that apparently has not learned much about real
world designing. I won't bore anyone with the details...I know many
others here deal with this as well.

I'd like to hear the details... always liked a good
story...

Unfortunately (unless they are learning things here) there are probably
many on this site with a "degree" that know nothing about good
design/layout.

Pretty bold statement... and you don't think you
should expect some discussion about it? There was a poll here a while
back, most here have NO formal training, they are mostly self-taught,
no mentors, no experience with layout at all.

I just grow tired of hearing "I have a degree in graphic arts"
(RED FLAG!!!!) Then they email you some atrocious piece of
work with tons of basic blunders. Many of the ones I have dealt
with get offended when I offer some corrective thoughts.

I do too, but at the same time, I have old
farts telling me they've been doing it longer than me so it must
mean they know more... (been doing this longer than you by the
way...) ummmm, no degree

I just added this to my Facebook page. Jeff's Lettering

View attachment 101746
Me lettering my first shop truck close to 28 years ago.

The names will not mean much too many people...but I like to
give thanks/acknowledgement to the sign painters that inspired/mentored me.

Jeff

Thing is Jeff, not all degrees are the same, not all experience is.

You can have a degree from Bucktooth University, or one from Art Center
and it means nothing unless the instructor was good and the student paid attention.

Never heard of the sign guys you list, doesn't make them good, but again
I would not assume they were bad. But "experience" can work against you.

I have looked at your Facebook page, you do some nice "sign" work...
I can't judge any other work you have done but it's not really fair to
think all old farts who paint(ed) know good layout or that they design in
the same sign design vernacular typical of the painters who taught us.
I don't know if you are a one trick pony, but quite a few "old" sign guys get
too comfortable with their work, and that all the layouts have that same tired
sign shop look to it. Now if that made me (and my customers) happy, then I
see no problem with that.

So then, degreed graphic designers might all suck, or the other way to think
about it is, why would a "good" degreed graphic designer come to you?

Again, I have no degree, I probably have the same type no name mentors
that you had that I appreciated growing up. The one thing I learned from most of
them was you have to collaborate with others sometimes. How you do that can
help you grow, or stagnate doing the same type of work people were trained with...

another way of saying it is... some guys say they have 30+ years of training, when
in fact, they have 5 years of experience and they did it 6 times.

You started a post that would generate some criticism, I think it's a subject worth discussing.

Oh, I am whatever my clients want me to be... one day it might be sign guy, the next, a graphic designer
the next time, turn polisher, and occasionally I'm an environmental graphic designer.

 

[TimToad]

Truthfully, very rarely. More likely we're told 'you're the experts - whatever you think'. When I first started, that definitely wasn't the case. But we've made it a point to educate our clients and give them valid rationale to trust our judgement. Many times, this is where sign companies can fall short. Clients don't trust them because they haven't given them many valid reasons to accept their recommendations or their expertise. Marketing your own expertise is just as important of a job as marketing theirs. Thought leadership goes a long way towards establishing credibility as well.

Dan, you hit it right on the head. In my 34 years of experience in a variety of sign and environmental graphics related experiences, I've seen many an inarticulate brush pusher/old school signmaker be up to their necks in talent and dexterity with a brush but not accepting of the fact that sophisticated and/or educated customers expect a certain level of communication and verbal explanation of why they should trust us with important design related tasks.

My observations are very general here and only one comment is directed at the OP specifically. I have no idea how he conducts his business and won't judge anything but his comments to start the thread.

Until more of our craftspeople elevate their own presentation skills to that of the average professionally trained graphic designer, not a one of us should be denigrating a fellow lettersmith or creative artist regardless of their age or experience.

Old perceptions die hard, and I've been around just too many signmakers who won't keep a tidy shop, wear a decent set of clean clothes with regularity, run a professional front office, offer professionally prepared proposals and drawings, etc....

We have a long history in the eyes of the public of being itinerant, drunken vagabonds moving from town to town earning just enough to stay flush with booze and painting supplies. We make our craft look easy and that ease and confidence is what makes the unknowing out there mistrust why our work costs what it costs. IT MUST BE EXPLAINED TO THEM. The added friction and resentment some of us throw at the design world does not help reverse those old stereotypes. My employee is an old school brushpusher like myself, and he constantly rolls his eyes and denigrates the "designers" who have been kind enough to bestow their trust in our shop. Some of our better and better designed jobs come due to that trust. Can I pick their work apart and find every little kerning or typographical error? Sure, but i'm not perfect either, so why waste the energy on being petty when the big picture out here looks so good.

I find the OP's position to be a tad anti-intellectual in the same way I've felt about all the other "sign painters" over the decades who resented "real" graphic designers. WE ARE ALL GRAPHIC ARTISTS and they are us. Some of us resent not being properly respected for the craft and skills we've honed, but think nothing of dumping on some young designer because they haven't spent enough time with One Shot under their nails in some dirty truck bay. Like its some kind of litmus test of purity.

Nitpicking about a few kerning issues is just the kind of petty thing I'd expect from those of us who haven't evolved or broadened their skillset enough to thrive anywhere but the rigid little space they operate in. I've spent months since joining here perusing many user's photo galleries and guess what? Most of us have kerning oversights or weaknesses in many of our signs, myself included. I see bad color theory. I see bad overall layout. I see very poor letter construction mostly from the "hand lettering" contingent. And before you jump my shiite on that last one, I could still pick up a Stabilo, choose a font and accurately render a few lines of text that would rival anyone's. I see a level of plagiarism that is not present in most of the graphic design world.

How many years can people regurgitate the same old Mike Stevens fonts in nearly every job and have the gall to still look down on others?

We have a helluva lot more in common with our college degreed graphic designer brethren than the masses who don't have a clue of what a well designed ANYTHING is. I do my best to view my design colleagues as partners in getting better overall design aesthetics out into the public realm.

Sure, not many modern designers or mostly computer aided design workers can sit on a milk crate and work a mahlstick correctly in a cold dirty garage, but could many of us design a compelling website that is fully functional? Or design a 90 page glossy corporate annual report that paginated right and printed beautifully?

Or design an entire signage/wayfinding system for a 3.2 million square foot computer chip manufacturing plant like I once did and still be able to fully respect BOTH my brush pusher and "graphic artist" colleagues equally?


Not bragging or making a condemnation, just offering some reality based food for thought.