HP 360 de-lamination issues

[FishnSigns]

We purchased 2 HP 360's at the end of last year. We have had a handful of de-lamination issues since we made the switch. In 12 years of running solvent printers, not once did we experience de-lamination. Now it has happened with 3M IJ180/8518, 3M IJ35/PS luster lam, and now Arlon 6000xrp/cast lam the problem usually happens when we need to snap up a print to reposition. The clear laminate releases from the printed ink leaving what appears to be a "hole" in the print. When you look closer, the lamination is still together but it released from the ink. It's one thing to have to reprint a panel for an install. My main concern is the completed work that's already out there. If this is an issue, will we have de-lamination issues down the road on completed projects?

Anyone out there experience this problem? Thanks.

 

[jkdbjj]

We purchased 2 HP 360's at the end of last year. We have had a handful of de-lamination issues since we made the switch. In 12 years of running solvent printers, not once did we experience de-lamination. Now it has happened with 3M IJ180/8518, 3M IJ35/PS luster lam, and now Arlon 6000xrp/cast lam the problem usually happens when we need to snap up a print to reposition. The clear laminate releases from the printed ink leaving what appears to be a "hole" in the print. When you look closer, the lamination is still together but it released from the ink. It's one thing to have to reprint a panel for an install. My main concern is the completed work that's already out there. If this is an issue, will we have de-lamination issues down the road on completed projects?

Anyone out there experience this problem? Thanks.

If I could not figure it out, I would have HP on the phone real quick. Good luck

 

[Slimoff]

We purchased 2 HP 360's at the end of last year. We have had a handful of de-lamination issues since we made the switch. In 12 years of running solvent printers, not once did we experience de-lamination. Now it has happened with 3M IJ180/8518, 3M IJ35/PS luster lam, and now Arlon 6000xrp/cast lam the problem usually happens when we need to snap up a print to reposition. The clear laminate releases from the printed ink leaving what appears to be a "hole" in the print. When you look closer, the lamination is still together but it released from the ink. It's one thing to have to reprint a panel for an install. My main concern is the completed work that's already out there. If this is an issue, will we have de-lamination issues down the road on completed projects?

Anyone out there experience this problem? Thanks.

How much time past since image was printed and before it was laminated?

 

[heyskull]

How much time past since image was printed and before it was laminated?

I don't understand?!?
I thought this was the main reason of buying a latex printer, that it was dry and ready to laminate almost straight from the machine!

I have had de-lamination issues with Arlon 6000xrp on a solvent machine but never with 3Ms IJ180.

SC

 

[Slimoff]

I don't understand?!?
I thought this was the main reason of buying a latex printer, that it was dry and ready to laminate almost straight from the machine!

I have had de-lamination issues with Arlon 6000xrp on a solvent machine but never with 3Ms IJ180.

SC

It worth to give a print 24 hours to dry.

 

[heyskull]

It worth to give a print 24 hours to dry.

So what's the benefits of latex other than you have to change heads more often and the smell?

Mind you their is very little smell of our eco solvent machine and really the only noticeable smell is when printing 3Ms IJ180 of which I can confirm I am addicted too!
Actually I reckon their is more harmful odours coming of 3Ms IJ180 material itself than the ink that is being applied to it (my opinion)

SC

 

[Slimoff]

So what's the benefits of latex other than you have to change heads more often and the smell?

Mind you their is very little smell of our eco solvent machine and really the only noticeable smell is when printing 3Ms IJ180 of which I can confirm I am addicted too!
Actually I reckon their is more harmful odours coming of 3Ms IJ180 material itself than the ink that is being applied to it (my opinion)

SC

All technologies have limitations in something.
you cannot trick physics or chemistry.
benefit is that you can print on materials that are impossible to print with solvent technology.
for SAV only benefit is "green" printing.
ps. Somtimes laminates and their glues are not compatible with latex, so it worth to try another brand or manufacturer.

 

[CanuckSigns]

can you post a picture? to clarify, is the laminate coming off the printed vinyl clean or is ink coming with it?

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We have found on our L260 that delamination occurs where the vinyl has a high concentration of plasticizer coming through the surface.

Are you running the optimizer and recommended levels or reduced/higher?

Also There is no need to wait to laminate Latex, I've been running them since 2010 and we laminate the second its cut off the printer. Latex does not outgas like solvent, the water vapor should be fully evaporated after the curing module or your settings are wrong. Also any Laminate with a Rubber or Acrylic based adhesive is compatible with the Latex inks, its the bond to the coated/uncoated surface below that is normally the issue. Latex Ink does not like Plasticizers which is why many Gloss Banners don't print well.

 

[FishnSigns]

Thanks everyone. I will try to address some of the questions from above:
- The latest wrap (Arlon 6000xrp) we let sit overnight before laminating.
- Some of the 3M products were laminated same day, sometimes within an hour or two.
- Usually the lam separates from the ink cleanly but sometimes it pulls a little ink/material with it. There are always spots of "clear" laminate when this happens.
- I think our settings are right, we have worked pretty hard on our profiles but there's always a chance I'm missing something. We are running normal levels of OP.
- The OP is a wild card, new to HP and all of us who are running the new generation of latex so I'm open to suggestions.
- I've had our rep contact HP as well as 3M and Arlon, now on two different occasions. Of course "This is the first time we've ever heard of this, HP inks and the materials you are printing on/laminating with are compatible with the 360" is the canned response from all parties involved.

I don't want a canned response from the manufacturers, I want to find out why we are de-laminating. This could be a major issue! Might be a simple fix such as reducing OP levels or something like that but it would be nice if HP would stand up and say so.

 

[dypinc]

I just mounted 3MIJ180 with 8519 over-lam. Printed mostly solid black. Pull some trimmed off bleed out of the trash. No de-lamination that I can find. Can't separate the lam from the black printed IJ180 no matter how hard I try.

 

[dan1942]

I just sent this thread link to the guy that is one of the head people for the HP latex printers here in the US. So hopefully he can let us know if he has seen any of this.

 

[Slimoff]

Thanks everyone. I will try to address some of the questions from above:
- The latest wrap (Arlon 6000xrp) we let sit overnight before laminating.
- Some of the 3M products were laminated same day, sometimes within an hour or two.
- Usually the lam separates from the ink cleanly but sometimes it pulls a little ink/material with it. There are always spots of "clear" laminate when this happens.
- I think our settings are right, we have worked pretty hard on our profiles but there's always a chance I'm missing something. We are running normal levels of OP.
- The OP is a wild card, new to HP and all of us who are running the new generation of latex so I'm open to suggestions.
- I've had our rep contact HP as well as 3M and Arlon, now on two different occasions. Of course "This is the first time we've ever heard of this, HP inks and the materials you are printing on/laminating with are compatible with the 360" is the canned response from all parties involved.

I don't want a canned response from the manufacturers, I want to find out why we are de-laminating. This could be a major issue! Might be a simple fix such as reducing OP levels or something like that but it would be nice if HP would stand up and say so.

Why you don't reduce optimizer first?
you pay for op cartridges and didn't try to reduce consuption?

 

[FishnSigns]

I just sent this thread link to the guy that is one of the head people for the HP latex printers here in the US. So hopefully he can let us know if he has seen any of this.

Thanks Dan. Hoping he can shed some light on the situation.

 

[FishnSigns]

Why you don't reduce optimizer first?
you pay for op cartridges and didn't try to reduce consuption?

We can try this but i'm nervous about durability if we reduce the OP levels. We have great color so I didn't want to just arbitrarily reduce OP levels before researching the problem a little bit first. It's not like every print is failing but it's happened enough that I think there is a problem.

 

[dypinc]

I would be interesting to know what your ink density and OP level are set to? I don't think the OP level has anything to do with durability. Is there some documentation about that somewhere?

I could see a scenario where you could set the latex optimizer way high and the ink density way high and not get coalescing but also not get proper curing which could cause laminate to not adhere to the ink. What I have seen when testing various combinations of Ink Density and LO that it can be very easy to get to much ink/lo layer down. In these situations the ink was very easy to scratch and I would not be suppressed that it would cause an adhesion problem for laminates.

I have done a lot of laminating using both cheap and high quality media and laminate and have not seen this happen.

 

[Asuma01]

Are your prints cured ? Do they have an oily sheen before you lam them? Sometimes for me prints look like they cured fine coming out of the printer. but if I come back to some media that has been printed on that has been rolled up it will look like it didn't cure completely.

I would say double check that your prints are 100% dry and cured when they come out. No oily sheen.

 

[FishnSigns]

Are your prints cured ? Do they have an oily sheen before you lam them? Sometimes for me prints look like they cured fine coming out of the printer. but if I come back to some media that has been printed on that has been rolled up it will look like it didn't cure completely.

I would say double check that your prints are 100% dry and cured when they come out. No oily sheen.

I'm pretty sure they are cured. I haven't noticed an oily sheen but I will double check the next run.

Thanks!

 

[chester215]

To go along with the thought that maybe they are not cured properly, Are the temp settings correct for the material you are using?

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

I don't understand?!?
I thought this was the main reason of buying a latex printer, that it was dry and ready to laminate almost straight from the machine!

I have had de-lamination issues with Arlon 6000xrp on a solvent machine but never with 3Ms IJ180.

SC

This is the reason you buy it. But if the profile is not set up correctly for your environment, then you could have the same issues as you would with a solvent. Prints don't dry all the way. And actually the prints should be completely dry when coming out of the machine. The heat causes the latex to bond to the substrate. If it comes out and it's not dry even if you let it sit out forever the ink will still not properly be affixed to the substrate.