John Don't Go!

[thesignexpert]

... No matter what, Fred has earned the respect of this community. I don't think anyone can deny that. Disrespecting his requests is on John, not Fred. If Fred asks you to stop something, it would be most respectful to stop it.

+1

 

[MikePro]

I'm sure Ray Rice still has a lot to contribute, as well.
Nothing against the offender, but if it weren't for moderation ...we'd all most likely be gone by now.

 

[bob]

...Nothing against the offender, but if it weren't for moderation ...we'd all most likely be gone by now.

Doubtful. Back in the wild and wooly days of Usenet news groups, long before the advent of the internet, The moderated groups only lasted as long as the moderators remained interested and not a minute longer. On the other hand unmoderated groups that existed back then still exist to this day. As fat as anyone can tell no moderated group survives from those days.

Back then there was one and only one rule: You and you alone are responsible for what you read. It would appear that Usenet participants were far more enlightened that the current crop of snivelers and bed wetters plying the internet these days.

 

[CES020]

Doubtful. Back in the wild and wooly days of Usenet news groups, long before the advent of the internet, The moderated groups only lasted as long as the moderators remained interested and not a minute longer. On the other hand unmoderated groups that existed back then still exist to this day. As fat as anyone can tell no moderated group survives from those days.

Back then there was one and only one rule: You and you alone are responsible for what you read. It would appear that Usenet participants were far more enlightened that the current crop of snivelers and bed wetters plying the internet these days.

You're leaving off one important point. Google didn't exist. If you were into some sick fetish, you could go onto that area and post anonymously all day long. You could view and post the most vile things one could ever imagine and not a single person on the planet knew who said it, or who was looking at it. Not the case now. You're comparing two points in time like nothing has changed, when in fact, everything has changed.

I don't think your claim is valid, that it's up to you, as an individual to be offended by what someone says. If one is using their real name or real business name in posts and portfolios, and some mental midget decides to clear their desk and make their focus destroying my online image that customers can see via any search engine, then you've taken it beyond being offended by someone's words and into damaging their business or business prospects. If one were to do some of these things in any other format than online, it would come close to crossing some legal boundaries. You can't damage my business for free with no recourse.

 

[Techman]

Usenet participants were far more enlightened that the current crop of snivelers and bed wetters plying the internet these days.

That place still exists in the undernet. The real internet is there with all the things that made the commonnet work. The net 98% of the users know today is barely 10% of what is really there.

Anyway, its back to work. I have a cnc router to fire up.

 

[Marlene]

if this site was set up so only registered members, no guests could see anything that was posted that would be nice. is there a way so that a search wouldn't be able to see anything posted here? it might make those like me who won't post work or use anything but my first name able to post stuff without having to worry.

 

[CES020]

if this site was set up so only registered members, no guests could see anything that was posted that would be nice. is there a way so that a search wouldn't be able to see anything posted here? it might make those like me who won't post work or use anything but my first name able to post stuff without having to worry.

That's what the Premium areas are for. They are blocked from public access and search engines.

 

[Fred Weiss]

if this site was set up so only registered members, no guests could see anything that was posted that would be nice. is there a way so that a search wouldn't be able to see anything posted here? it might make those like me who won't post work or use anything but my first name able to post stuff without having to worry.

That's what the Premium areas are for. They are blocked from public access and search engines.

It has been setup that way for several years now Marlene. In addition to the premium forums being invisible to all except paid subscribers, several "open" forums are also invisible to non members and search engine bots. Log out and then go to the Forums index and note that you cannot see any sign of a number of forums including "Designs and Layouts", "Logo Design", "Sales, Marketing and Pricing".

Yes, it is certainly a risk that a registered member could see your work and somehow cause you loss or harm as a result. In such an instance, Signs 101 management would take appropriate action against such a miscreant when reported and proven.

The heart of Signs 101 is members helping members. Showing work worthy of admiration is an important part of that.

 

[ddarlak]

fred, I don't know why you even waste your time explaining yourself. you do what needs to be done, you've explained this time and time again....

internet-forum-drama-burnout is a real thing, people burn up and fade away all the time.

if they really want to, they'll swallow pride and come back....


















ask me how i know.....

 

[Marlene]

It has been setup that way for several years now Marlene. In addition to the premium forums being invisible to all except paid subscribers, several "open" forums are also invisible to non members and search engine bots. Log out and then go to the Forums index and note that you cannot see any sign of a number of forums including "Designs and Layouts", "Logo Design", "Sales, Marketing and Pricing".

Yes, it is certainly a risk that a registered member could see your work and somehow cause you loss or harm as a result. In such an instance, Signs 101 management would take appropriate action against such a miscreant when reported and proven.

The heart of Signs 101 is members helping members. Showing work worthy of admiration is an important part of that.

yes the premium is set up like that but that would mean that someone would only be able to be protected in that section and if they had their names and company info open, they never could post in the main forum. also is seems all these "bad guys" are in the regular forum. seems like the entire site could be private for any non-member.

 

[Fred Weiss]

yes the premium is set up like that but that would mean that someone would only be able to be protected in that section and if they had their names and company info open, they never could post in the main forum. also is seems all these "bad guys" are in the regular forum. seems like the entire site could be private for any non-member.

No Marlene. As I posted, sensitive forums in the open forum area are also invisible to non members. If there are any that any member feels should also be protected, we are open to suggestion.

As far as locking out all non members from those forums they can presently see and that search engines catalog ... all I can say is that the majority of the Signs 101 members decided long ago that they weren't going to support Signs 101 financially, contribute useful content, and that member ownership and management didn't matter to them. As a result, a business model based on merchant subscriptions and banner advertising was adopted. Such a business model depends on delivering high traffic which is where the search engines and visibility come into play. Locking out non members would result in a loss of nearly all of our new registrant flow and Signs 101 would have closed its doors years ago.

Signs 101 has evolved into the highest traffic sign industry website on the internet. That is because there is lots of good content here and we show enough of it to inspire many new members to join. Those that come and view the more limited content without registering don't see most or all of the type of information you are concerned about. But they add a huge amount of traffic which, combined with registered member traffic, allows us to attract merchant members and banner advertisers in sufficient numbers to meet our financial needs.

All you or any concerned member has to do is to pay attention to what forums you post any sensitive images or information in. If you have a problem with any member misusing anything you post, just document it and report it to management. The same is true for rude posts or any other activity that intimidates some members into not posting or even returning.

 

[Bly]

Doubtful. Back in the wild and wooly days of Usenet news groups, long before the advent of the internet, The moderated groups only lasted as long as the moderators remained interested and not a minute longer. On the other hand unmoderated groups that existed back then still exist to this day. As fat as anyone can tell no moderated group survives from those days.

Back then there was one and only one rule: You and you alone are responsible for what you read. It would appear that Usenet participants were far more enlightened that the current crop of snivelers and bed wetters plying the internet these days.

I agree. For what it's worth my most enjoyable forums are the least moderated ones.
The crybabies who scream victim are worse than the alleged bullies in my opinion.

 

[Joe Diaz]

The crybabies who scream victim are worse than the alleged bullies in my opinion.

Which crybabies are we talking about? One could view those claiming to be victim to Fred's tyrannical rule:Big Laugh as the crybabies, and the people complaining about trolls as just folks standing up to bullies. No disrespect to your opinion or comment, but It's a matter of perspective I guess. I personally think this would be an even more attractive place to converse with other adults in our profession if the childish trolls were kept in check from time to time. Even though I've never once requested that Fred should ban someone, I respect Fred's decisions in this mater, because this is his business and I'm his guest. If he thinks someone is hurting his business, myself included, then he should have the right to deal with it as he sees fit. I can see he's just trying to keep things in check. I don't know Fred real well, but I've seen how he handles himself here, and hard decisions like the one he made here weren't made on a whim, but done to protect what I can only image he has put so much blood, sweat and tears into building. Again, we are his guests here, and I would think he would want to know that there are many folks turned off by the behavior of a person with nothing better to do but cause problems, so I cannot in my right mind vilify the person that reported the post in this case either. John created this scenario, and there were many ways he could have rectified the issue. He chose not to.

I cannot begin to count how many people I personally know who avoid participating on forums like this (not just s101 but others like it) just because they cannot stand the drama and prefer to avoid dealing with people that have nothing better to do with their time then hide behind a computer screen and hand out insults all day. These people aren't crybabies or victims because they are scared off, they just don't bother posting at all. Some of these people that will never participate are people I've learned a lot from in this profession and I know others here could learn a lot from as well... more so than we do from the few trolls here. The only way you will know what I'm talking about is if you happen to be lucky enough to bump into them and get to know them, because that's the only chance we get. So it might be entertaining for some to watch folks tear down others who are here to learn or to teach, but that comes at a greater cost imho, and the only person that really benefits from that kind of "entertainment" are the people who gain temporary pleasure from seeing others treated poorly. No one becomes a better sign maker in that case, and only a few are having fun at the expense of others.

 

[Techman]

The crybabies who scream victim are worse than the alleged bullies in my opinion

Just because someone complains doesn't mean they are whiny crybabies.

 

[CES020]

the only person that really benefits from that kind of "entertainment" are the people who gain temporary pleasure from seeing others treated poorly. No one becomes a better sign maker in that case, and only a few are having fun at the expense of others.

One of the best things I think I've ever seen you post Joe, and you've posted plenty of great things over the years.

 

[HDvinyl]

95% of John's attachment's and post's were helpful or funny...







The other 5% needed to be moderated.

 

[TimToad]

Which crybabies are we talking about? One could view those claiming to be victim to Fred's tyrannical rule:Big Laugh as the crybabies, and the people complaining about trolls as just folks standing up to bullies. No disrespect to your opinion or comment, but It's a matter of perspective I guess. I personally think this would be an even more attractive place to converse with other adults in our profession if the childish trolls were kept in check from time to time. Even though I've never once requested that Fred should ban someone, I respect Fred's decisions in this mater, because this is his business and I'm his guest. If he thinks someone is hurting his business, myself included, then he should have the right to deal with it as he sees fit. I can see he's just trying to keep things in check. I don't know Fred real well, but I've seen how he handles himself here, and hard decisions like the one he made here weren't made on a whim, but done to protect what I can only image he has put so much blood, sweat and tears into building. Again, we are his guests here, and I would think he would want to know that there are many folks turned off by the behavior of a person with nothing better to do but cause problems, so I cannot in my right mind vilify the person that reported the post in this case either. John created this scenario, and there were many ways he could have rectified the issue. He chose not to.

I cannot begin to count how many people I personally know who avoid participating on forums like this (not just s101 but others like it) just because they cannot stand the drama and prefer to avoid dealing with people that have nothing better to do with their time then hide behind a computer screen and hand out insults all day. These people aren't crybabies or victims because they are scared off, they just don't bother posting at all. Some of these people that will never participate are people I've learned a lot from in this profession and I know others here could learn a lot from as well... more so than we do from the few trolls here. The only way you will know what I'm talking about is if you happen to be lucky enough to bump into them and get to know them, because that's the only chance we get. So it might be entertaining for some to watch folks tear down others who are here to learn or to teach, but that comes at a greater cost imho, and the only person that really benefits from that kind of "entertainment" are the people who gain temporary pleasure from seeing others treated poorly. No one becomes a better sign maker in that case, and only a few are having fun at the expense of others.

Right on brother! I took an eight year hiatus from the full time sign industry and ran a successful B&B that my wife and I started from scratch. I still did the occasional hand lettered sign for the right price and clients and had all the "drama" I could stomach from the supposedly more "refined" travelers who choose B&Bs instead of hotels. I could write a tawdry AND not so fictional accounting of the experience and it would be a hit.

I get back in the sign business full time, seek out fellow craftspeople looking to create and perpetuate camaraderie and a collegial attitude and wham!, the biggest venue out there to do so is fraught with drama.

I'm not sure what makes us human types want to get in each others grills so much, but its a sign of the times I'm afraid. Folks I meet from other countries seem way more relaxed and self-assured about their role in the universe.

In this wonderful experiment named America, we have half the people hurting others and the other half feeling hurt. And that's not to discount or trivialize the real hurt being inflicted by the sadistic types who get off on their meanness.

Man. I just want to talk some harmless, irreverent shiite with my signmaking buds, post a few jobs I'm either proud of, need some guidance on or am unsure about without getting my work nitpicked to death or ridiculed just because it feels good for some folks to be aggressively critical of EVERYTHING. Does that mean, I just want a rubber stamp of "looks awesome!" on everything? No, but I've already seen enough of the "everyone here needs a thick skin" justification for just being a dick to make me not want to share.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Man. I just want to talk some harmless, irreverent shiite with my signmaking buds, post a few jobs I'm either proud of, need some guidance on or am unsure about without getting my work nitpicked to death or ridiculed just because it feels good for some folks to be aggressively critical of EVERYTHING. Does that mean, I just want a rubber stamp of "looks awesome!" on everything? No, but I've already seen enough of the "everyone here needs a thick skin" justification for just being a dick to make me not want to share.

I've never been so much bothered by the rude comments people make. What I am bothered by is the people who make them. The ones who I've noticed are the worst offenders are the ones who never post their own work to leave it open for ridicule and/or discussion. Put up or shut up, I say. If you don't, your comments mean little or nothing to me.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

Without my business partner from holding me back, I got to do
this... well, till she sees it...

Anyone seeking to harm a reputation has the potential to hurt
someones business. By the way, a member some years back
called my old boss, would still like to kick that guys ***. You
get called, out, your business called out, where you work
called out... it's more than words f'er... again, I worked my
*** off, slept on the floor, been harassed by my mentors... I'm
52 and answer to no bitter, probably narcissist, and definitely has
some mental issues oldfart. Again, I'm here for my benefit.

I do believe no one gets off free from criticism. And I'm pretty
sure we are open to it... even though it might sting a little...

We are designers, we can be delicate flowers...
Just don't f*ck with my business.

So when people question this members motives about wanting the
pic removed I have to wonder... were any of you part of his success?
Any have the years and years of stuggle he went through to get to
that point? Sure as hell John Butto of whoever this clown is, is not
the guy to do it. Any of you critical of this designer having had the lame
pic pulled down, where do you work so you can be exposed to your employers
wrath? You losing anything from it by having it removed... Or you doing all
that great where you can be as critical... what business can you lose...
again, who are you in the grand scheme of things when it comes to any of
these designers hard work.

Oh yeah, y'all like drama.

No one goes out and designs good just have have their looks and salary
questioned... None of Butto's business. Using my thread to get at that
designer was a pu$$y move. JB needs to do a better job at insulting with
a purpose, or shut the hell up, post his cute doodles and advice and if
he feels the need to rebel, don't cry about it later when someone
has to moderate it.

I think he should keep doing them, just don't mess with a person's business...
keep your animosity to yourself or if you want to show it, suffer the consequences.

It's all there... his admission

It's more than cartoons, pictures and jokes so get off it. No one knows "player"
no one may ever know "player"... you are shielded because you have not revealed
yourself so you have nothing to lose. I shielded myself too, at least I thought i did till
someone called my boss. Once you've had that happen, you tend to be a little more
aggressive about protecting your interests. I took off my personal information cuz
I don't want some self appointed forum czar to mess with my work... but someone
can still mess with it if they felt the need.

yeah i see it.... now get over it and get back to work! (oh, and put your stuff back up too... ya potty mouth pu$$y)

several years ago, I had my full name, location and company info out in the open as I stand behind anything I do or say in real life or online. a member, a person I might add who still is a member here contacted another member's customer not trying to steal work but just being an a$$. I was in contact thru PMs with the abused member and every since then, I've removed everything except my first name. I also will never post work here on the site as you never know what another member will do with the info. don't judge those who don't post their work as you have no idea why. don't assume you know and put them down for it. it was rude to say Gino never posted his work as you have no idea his reasons to choose not to. for those who do post that is up to you and I also don't assume to know why you do. it looks like some who have done some real life damage to members are welcome on the site while some who have just ticked people off aren't. that is Fred's choice. just remember that when you post your real name or your work, that member is still out there so good luck with that

couldn't agree more with Marlene.... don't make assumptions about why member do or don't use their real names or post their work. i took some heat for both. s101 was the first forum i ever joined and after telling my sons for years not to put their name and address on "my space" it never occurred to me to do it either. once i became comfortable and got a little thicker skin (not much thicker, just a wee bit) i did consider using my real name and posting work. i tested the waters a little by posting pics on my profile page.... only to have someone track down that client and ask questions about who had done their window graphics. i wanted to post about it but was advised against it. i guess so i wouldn't look like such a pu$$y. (ok i totally lied about getting a thicker skin) i couldn't let it go completely, so i posted something on the photo, just to let the person who'd called know i knew what they did.

just want to add one more thing.... along the lines of not knowing why members do what they do.
i can't help but wonder... when someone who's always been helpful and posted in good humor.... seemingly changes... well... i have to wonder if maybe they're going through something. it's unfortunate that john couldn't just apologize rather than leave... but worse would be for Rick, Joe or Dan to leave. all three have earned the respect of members here, not just for their talents but for their contributions and character. i saw what went on behind the scenes... an apology is in order.

 

[Rick]

yeah i see it.... now get over it and get back to work! (oh, and put your stuff back up too... ya potty mouth pu$$y)



couldn't agree more with Marlene.... don't make assumptions about why member do or don't use their real names or post their work. i took some heat for both. s101 was the first forum i ever joined and after telling my sons for years not to put their name and address on "my space" it never occurred to me to do it either. once i became comfortable and got a little thicker skin (not much thicker, just a wee bit) i did consider using my real name and posting work. i tested the waters a little by posting pics on my profile page.... only to have someone track down that client and ask questions about who had done their window graphics. i wanted to post about it but was advised against it. i guess so i wouldn't look like such a pu$$y. (ok i totally lied about getting a thicker skin) i couldn't let it go completely, so i posted something on the photo, just to let the person who'd called know i knew what they did.

just want to add one more thing.... along the lines of not knowing why members do what they do.
i can't help but wonder... when someone who's always been helpful and posted in good humor.... seemingly changes... well... i have to wonder if maybe they're going through something. it's unfortunate that john couldn't just apologize rather than leave... but worse would be for Rick, Joe or Dan to leave. all three have earned the respect of members here, not just for their talents but for their contributions and character. i saw what went on behind the scenes... an apology is in order.

You're not the boss of me!!!!!

(Gigi holds up a slice of pizza)

Okay... okayaaaaa