Yeah, I viewed the link. ETL is also an option for the products entry in US market. Didn't it before. Thanks again Wayne. Your information always help very much!
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LED Display Signs
- Thread starter dlcled
- Start date
I don't think China is aggressive on economic. There are 1.4 billion population in China and thousands of companies in every business. Imagine the competition, it is like a war, but not to USA but between ourselves. Every single person, every company, they strive to survive and trying to sell products to oversea market. So, calm down, we are not waging an economic war against USA. USA behold advanced & sophisticated technologies, which China may take 50 years or even 100 years to catch. And even 50 years or even 100 later, US will go further another 50 or 100 years ahead...What we are doing is just for survival and development. This is just my idea. a little bit far topic from Sign..
Thats true. Its not the Chinese who waged an economic war against the American people. Its the US government who sold out the American people by allowing the big corporations to circumvent trade laws to make windfall profit and the US govt to sell off t-bills to finance wars and balloon the country with debt.
Thanks for your post here "Just another Sign guy". Anyhow,I know now it varies in different places in United States. Thanks!
ddarlak
Go Bills!
great, just blame the US goverment, which happens to be YOU! yes, sometimes it feels like they are to blame, but it truely is We the people that are to blame. keep pointing fingers and buying stuff made from china and see where that gets us.....
yes, welcome to capitalism, except in your case it truely isn't capitalism is it?
In 1984 Reagan travelled to Shanghai and told the Chinese if you cooperate with us you will see prosperity. That began the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind and the result is the US middle class is gone.
Sold out for corporate greed.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I hear ya Sign Guy, but listen to this one.
I went to a small function just last night and was introduced to the new CEO of the chapter. Turns out he was the PA electrical somethinornother for the entire state from Harrisburg and he's in constant contact with all the other states....... and this very item is the topic on everyone's tongue for the last umpteen years. He's been the head for about 8 years. Now he's our CEO.
Anyway, he said there most definitely is a standard, but the problem is, not many people follow those standards. It's getting harder and harder to enforce these standards and they don't have the manpower to find all the wrong doers. When you enter in all the illegal stuff China is sending to us, it just makes it that much harder to nab these people.
One of the largest problems is, he said that the Chinese have mastered duplicating everything, but their sub-standard devices are hard to see/detect. Weight becomes an important factor. He said when they manufacture breakers.... and almost all of our breakers today come from China, they are so inferior, that when you hold a good one in one hand and one of theirs in your other hand, there is such a weight difference and that's why there are so many fires. They burn up before they go off. He said that kind of standard is across the board in most of their products.
I'm not coming down on the Chinese, but it is pretty much the discussion of the decade... or two. As ddarlak was saying, we had much better control when we built these things ourselves, but when you have Mexico, China and all of these other countries trying to replace us as manufactures... it's a little hard to swallow bad quality when you expect at least what you've been used to for so long. Sure, we produced some bad ones here and there, but it was infrequent and usually rectified. With these other countries, they have lower standards to begin with and find all kinds of loopholes and stuff to get crap sent here.
I'm all for making a buck and if the Chinese were really smart, they'd abide by our standards and still make it for less and take over the entire market. However, with the mentality of give them crap and they will take it..... well, that thinking stinks and I don't want to be party to such nonsense. I will continue as long as I can getting the best products so I can always stand behind my/our craft.
Again, just because some don't use the U/L stamps doesn't make it right, they're just getting away with murder and in some cases... it's exactly that.
I went to a small function just last night and was introduced to the new CEO of the chapter. Turns out he was the PA electrical somethinornother for the entire state from Harrisburg and he's in constant contact with all the other states....... and this very item is the topic on everyone's tongue for the last umpteen years. He's been the head for about 8 years. Now he's our CEO.
Anyway, he said there most definitely is a standard, but the problem is, not many people follow those standards. It's getting harder and harder to enforce these standards and they don't have the manpower to find all the wrong doers. When you enter in all the illegal stuff China is sending to us, it just makes it that much harder to nab these people.
One of the largest problems is, he said that the Chinese have mastered duplicating everything, but their sub-standard devices are hard to see/detect. Weight becomes an important factor. He said when they manufacture breakers.... and almost all of our breakers today come from China, they are so inferior, that when you hold a good one in one hand and one of theirs in your other hand, there is such a weight difference and that's why there are so many fires. They burn up before they go off. He said that kind of standard is across the board in most of their products.
I'm not coming down on the Chinese, but it is pretty much the discussion of the decade... or two. As ddarlak was saying, we had much better control when we built these things ourselves, but when you have Mexico, China and all of these other countries trying to replace us as manufactures... it's a little hard to swallow bad quality when you expect at least what you've been used to for so long. Sure, we produced some bad ones here and there, but it was infrequent and usually rectified. With these other countries, they have lower standards to begin with and find all kinds of loopholes and stuff to get crap sent here.
I'm all for making a buck and if the Chinese were really smart, they'd abide by our standards and still make it for less and take over the entire market. However, with the mentality of give them crap and they will take it..... well, that thinking stinks and I don't want to be party to such nonsense. I will continue as long as I can getting the best products so I can always stand behind my/our craft.
Again, just because some don't use the U/L stamps doesn't make it right, they're just getting away with murder and in some cases... it's exactly that.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
Gino the electrical contrators have their poop in a group leaps & bounds beyond what we as a 'trade' have done. Electrical contractors may have a national code...this code obviously does not extend to our trade..as they are not the same animal...comparing apples to monkeys.
in some municipalities you must be an electrical contactor or have an electrical license to service,install electrical signs...this is not correct nationwide..however, I agree as I have stated that a national standard for our trade (not just for electrical signs) but also any installation that is structural,could result in injury,etc.. I do not think this 'standard' should apply to vehicle wraps, banners (unless installed in ways that could result in injury) etc. Needless to say this is a very complex issue & those serious about the professionalism of our industry should be very concerned about it. My fear is that if we do not regulate ourselves eventually some accident will happen that will result in some agency regulating us who does not understand our industry.
in some municipalities you must be an electrical contactor or have an electrical license to service,install electrical signs...this is not correct nationwide..however, I agree as I have stated that a national standard for our trade (not just for electrical signs) but also any installation that is structural,could result in injury,etc.. I do not think this 'standard' should apply to vehicle wraps, banners (unless installed in ways that could result in injury) etc. Needless to say this is a very complex issue & those serious about the professionalism of our industry should be very concerned about it. My fear is that if we do not regulate ourselves eventually some accident will happen that will result in some agency regulating us who does not understand our industry.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I believe ya. It's just not what is said around here from my suppliers, to my electric guy in the shop to just about anyone else in these parts. Possibly here in PA it is different from say Tampa or wherever, but I can't believe that if a sign is made to sub-standard specs, it will pass any codes officer inspection Anywhere, USA.
This stuff is all connected throughout with the insurance industry and if a sign could short out due to inferior wiring, conductors, supply sources being under-rated or just plain ventilation.... how will an insurance company pay a claim if it was allowed by the codes people ??
I was involved with several cases years ago in my area with signs catching fire. All kinds of things from improper installations to inferior products being used. Every one of them was made by the Chinese. Every one. If permits were not obtained, then the insurance didn't allow it. The person had an illegally installed sign hands down. If permits were pulled, the specs were gone over and compared to what was really in the signs or buildings. Investigations were big time and it rid the area of a lot of cheap shops cutting corners. Now it's starting to creep back in again as times are getting tougher for a lota shops. People tend to think they can do what they want with no regards for the laws on the books.
There's a guy about 20 miles or so from our shop that has one of these Chinese LED signs. About a 5' x 10 two-sided deal. He can't get it to work, because it basically fried itself out within a few months. He can get bulbs, but no parts for it. Nada.
I'm going to look into this some more, but not until next week. I don't want to hurt this guy, but in the same spirits, I don't want him to hurt anyone either. Afterall, he's come here and joined our ranks and has shown an interest in doing it by the book, so I'm all for giving him all the help we can so he can trade here and not possibly burn someone's building down.
This stuff is all connected throughout with the insurance industry and if a sign could short out due to inferior wiring, conductors, supply sources being under-rated or just plain ventilation.... how will an insurance company pay a claim if it was allowed by the codes people ??
I was involved with several cases years ago in my area with signs catching fire. All kinds of things from improper installations to inferior products being used. Every one of them was made by the Chinese. Every one. If permits were not obtained, then the insurance didn't allow it. The person had an illegally installed sign hands down. If permits were pulled, the specs were gone over and compared to what was really in the signs or buildings. Investigations were big time and it rid the area of a lot of cheap shops cutting corners. Now it's starting to creep back in again as times are getting tougher for a lota shops. People tend to think they can do what they want with no regards for the laws on the books.
There's a guy about 20 miles or so from our shop that has one of these Chinese LED signs. About a 5' x 10 two-sided deal. He can't get it to work, because it basically fried itself out within a few months. He can get bulbs, but no parts for it. Nada.
I'm going to look into this some more, but not until next week. I don't want to hurt this guy, but in the same spirits, I don't want him to hurt anyone either. Afterall, he's come here and joined our ranks and has shown an interest in doing it by the book, so I'm all for giving him all the help we can so he can trade here and not possibly burn someone's building down.
Weight means more raw material cost = less profit.
That's the theory. There is no pride in making a
quality product, its solely how cheaply can it be
made and how fast.
Westcoast Sign Guy
New Member
UL Sucks monkey balls. We need to revert to JUST the NEC, child safety has gotten out of hand
There are different kinds of LED Signs. And UL expiration period is only one year. To verify just one size say 40x112 pixels 16mm pitch, will cost about $1000.00 for one year. However, not every customer will need 40x112, they may need 40x128, 40x80,40x144,40x160,40x192..... Basically, there are seven different available popular sizes for every line say 32 dots, 24 dots, 16 dots, 40 dots, 48 dots,56 dots and 64 dots in height. This will be already 49 different sizes of LED Signs just for one color, there are RG tricolor and RGB full color. Hundreds of them! To approve UL? No company can do it but huge companies who have a big fund. Everyone can count how much it will cost. This is why lots of Chinese company would rather sell non-ul approved signs. But although they are not UL approved still not means that they don't do according the standard of UL or North America market require if they want to explore this market,although there are indeed some companies trying to sell to US market but use low standard production,that is not responsible.You may say to sell non-UL label or approved signs is also a kind of non-responsible. First of all, to just put a label doesn't mean anything. Lots of small companies like us to test their signs in small testing company and thereby get a UL certificate.That is almost equal to "buy" one UL certification. And not every company will think it valid.I know it's hard to select a supplier in China. There are too many to choose and there are big difference. However, look at on Ebay, don't you think they are still big difference? The signs price on ebay, some, it is only a cost even not include labor salary for the same sign. And also declare UL. I think there must be a way to do that. But for me, I have no idea how do they deal with.
UFB Fabrication
New Member
Here is a little story for you. One of my customer that we build signs for sells a lot of electronic message centers. Mostly Daktrinics. He has a 20 year relationship with one of his customers that wanted a good size EMC. She said he was to high and she found one online and would he put it up for her. H e agreed but said she had to get her own sign permit have her electrician permit and make final hook up. He also said he wanted to make sure that he was not responsible for warranty work when it fails. Anyway he puts it up and gets paid. A week later she says that she has a problem. The local code guy came out to do final inspection and it was not a listed (UL MET ETL etc) and could not hook it up. She calls the guy she bought it from and the sign was not listed. nor could he help. That was a few months ago and last week he went and installed a banner over it. 20g's for a banner sign niceee.
Sorry folks but the reason UL and the rest are as big as they are is a HUGE portion of the sign biz knows squat about electric sign nor has any business installing them.
I also wish that all communities required all electric sign installers to be licensed electrical contractors and require all signs to be listed. The hacks and wannabes need to get legit.
Rant over good day !
Sorry folks but the reason UL and the rest are as big as they are is a HUGE portion of the sign biz knows squat about electric sign nor has any business installing them.
I also wish that all communities required all electric sign installers to be licensed electrical contractors and require all signs to be listed. The hacks and wannabes need to get legit.
Rant over good day !
UFB Fabrication
New Member
BTW I think anyone foolish to buy a non listed sign to re sell. At the minimum the added thought that if it catches fire or falls and you are getting sued the listing agencies with have bigger lawyers than yours to say that the sign has been built to a standard and has done testing. That can be helpful.
It cost money to build stuff to a standard, add it to the price.
It cost money to build stuff to a standard, add it to the price.
may consider apply other certificate for our signs, like ETL or MET, or other acceptable certificate in the near future, instead of UL. UL can kill our business, not our standard can't reach UL's requirement standard but the cost can kill us.I agree you guys on getting a permit before sell something.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
dlcled respectfully I would really think that decision through. I have mixed feelings in regards to Underwriters Laboraties just because of 20 +years in the trade & various personal reasons,however,they are the standard by which all others are measured,they are numero uno.
I would also add that I have had multiple conversations with them in the last year & in my opinion they are trying to be much easier to work with than they were 10 years ago. I found their recent fees to be actually somewhat reasonable.
I would seriously consider all of the costs but being that you are a smaller company & outside of the US you may find some potential clients may hold you to a higher standard & being recognized by Underwriters may be the certification that eliminates many concerns potential customers may have.
good luck to you.
I would also add that I have had multiple conversations with them in the last year & in my opinion they are trying to be much easier to work with than they were 10 years ago. I found their recent fees to be actually somewhat reasonable.
I would seriously consider all of the costs but being that you are a smaller company & outside of the US you may find some potential clients may hold you to a higher standard & being recognized by Underwriters may be the certification that eliminates many concerns potential customers may have.
good luck to you.
Hi Sign guy,
Thanks for your comments.Yes, UL is the first and most popular one, yeah for sure that they are Numero Uno. Our problem is the led display has too many different types which make us hardly to get this certificate considering the cost. We are considering on design a "formula" cabinet which is with a standard certain size pixel,that way,it will be probably possible to apply a UL for just one. Because with such one formula cabinet, any size of signs can be built. For example, to make a 32x16 pixels 20mm pitch small pixel cabinet. So, bigger messages can just be built just by stacking such small cabinets. This is a thought. To find clients that can hold us to a high standard, this is a good way and efficient way to improve and we are trying. Anyway, it is hard to survive for a small & new company, however, considering we have a little advantage on our software and manufacturing, we believe that we can grow.
Thanks again man.
Thanks for your comments.Yes, UL is the first and most popular one, yeah for sure that they are Numero Uno. Our problem is the led display has too many different types which make us hardly to get this certificate considering the cost. We are considering on design a "formula" cabinet which is with a standard certain size pixel,that way,it will be probably possible to apply a UL for just one. Because with such one formula cabinet, any size of signs can be built. For example, to make a 32x16 pixels 20mm pitch small pixel cabinet. So, bigger messages can just be built just by stacking such small cabinets. This is a thought. To find clients that can hold us to a high standard, this is a good way and efficient way to improve and we are trying. Anyway, it is hard to survive for a small & new company, however, considering we have a little advantage on our software and manufacturing, we believe that we can grow.
Thanks again man.