Legal advice, somebody ripped off my design.

[Pat Whatley]

Christians make up over 90% of the human race

No. Christians make up 32% of the human race.

Personally I do $18,000 - $20,000 a year with churches. I've never had one screw me over, very rarely do I have any problems, and I don't get asked for a church discount more than a couple of times a year. All in all they've been VERY good customers for me.

 

[binki]

Do unto others...

Make some church related promo items and sell them in front of the church on Sundays.

 

[skyhigh]

Since myself and others have indeed prevailed in small claims court in identical circumstances in many different jurisdictions, I can only conclude that in these matters you don't know your ass from a warm biscuit.

:ROFLMAO:

I personally know of those who have been awarded design fees, and others who received the entire bid price of the project. Thats what I would be shooting for.

Stop and think of how this played out...... This "parishioner/businessman (who should know better) had to actually take a printed copy of your design to another sign shop, and personally hand it to another designer...who should have, at the very least asked "who did the design".

Your a fool if you don't persue this. You can start out nice, by having a friendly chat with the church officials (maybe include Mr.Business). Perhaps if he's doing that well, he would like another "write-off" for HIS business, rather than steal from YOURS.

 

[Pat Whatley]

...and I still say that without seeing your design and the ripped off design nobody here can actually say whether you were ripped off or not.

 

[royster13]

http://copyrightsandcampaigns.blogspot.com/2009/08/can-you-sue-in-state-small-claims-court.html

 

[Techman]

This is not a copy right case. This is a theft of services case..

 

[Joe3]

I would talk to them first and tell them what you plan to bill them. If they have any issues with it, then I'd let the lawyers (or Lions) loose on them.

 

[royster13]

If this is theft, it is a criminal matter?.....If there was was an agreement to supply a service and they did not pay, then this might be a small claims matter....Sounds like there was no final agreement....As I see it, they misappropriated some "intellectual property", therefore, it might just be a federal matter....

 

[GypsyGraphics]

start out with a C&D (cease and desist) letter (a prerequisite to any suit or form of action). That will immediately grab their attention and possibly bring them, humbly, to the negotiating table.

C&D absolutely... but... i wouldn't start there. Wether they know it or not (and i think they do) they created the obligation. They knew what the cost of the design was, royalty free images or original artwork, doesn't matter.

Just send them a bill already!!!! Give them the chance to do the right thing... give them very limited time to pay and follow with a C&D if it's not paid on time.

that little fish symbol seems to mean "BORN AGAIN" which is the symbol of get the hell out of my shop!

I'll probably go to hell for this but...
i f'n hate those GD fishies... seriously... i'm suspicious of anyone who has one on their car. and i would NEVER use the services or purchase anything from a business that has a fish in they're ad or anywhere in there place of business!!!! it's unprofessional, lame and and a sure sign of a BS'er!!!
hi ho, hi ho, it's off to hell i go

 

[Idea Design]

Why should it matter if it's some church or a squad of Gypsies?

Bill them for whatever you think they owe you.

Don't call, don't plead, don't do anything but file in your local small claims court. Not only file but pay whatever fee to get the local sheriff's department to serve whatever papers need serving. Consider it an investment, you get it all back.

If they offer to settle don't accept anything less than exactly what you're asking for plus any and all filing and service fees paid to date.

When you go to court familiarize yourself with the Berne Convention of 1989 and print and bring with you a copy of same. It's readily available from any number of web sites.

Also bring a screen shot or two showing both your purloined design with the file name and an Explorer window showing the creation and last modification date of that file on the same screen. Show that this pre-dates the appearance of the actual wrap.

Submit these things as evidence and tell your story as simply and in as uncomplicated a way as possible.

You will prevail. You will get a judgment against them. If they refuse to pay up, do whatever is necessary in your village to file a lien and once again get the sheriff's department to serve it on whatever property they possess.

Do this. Do exactly this. Nothing more, nothing less. I took this exact advice and won in small claims court and I got paid.

I may be one of the lucky ones for actually receiving money, but this advice works, I can attest first hand.

 

[OldPaint]

...and I still say that without seeing your design and the ripped off design nobody here can actually say whether you were ripped off or not.

iam with pat on this. it is a background from a CD/PICTURE, and you just added some text................i dont see it as a design. you copied it from somewhere.
got some pics?

 

[schramm]

Without a written contract binding one company to agree with him that they wanted that work done and without a deposit I don't think that he has a leg to stand on. Without paying a copyright fee there is no copywriter.

I agree this could be theft of services but I don't think so because his original contract mentions nothing of having a binding deal between him and the Church officials. Without something that binds them you don't have much to stand on in court, judges LOVE paper trails but he has NONE!! Looks like he is S-O-O-L!

By the way even if you win in court - is that time that you spend really worth it at the end of the day? I mean there is principal and then there is common scenes... Time is money (I think that we all can agree on this), without a contract he has nothing at all showing what his time is worth and that the Church agreed to anything! He may have decided to do this on his own in HOPES that they would go with it.

Life goes on, but from what I am reading - Thank God I don't do business with a few (unnamed people) here on the board.

By the way 86.2% of the US is Christian according to the census, so I was off a little. But that is still a lot of people not to do business with as they may fly the flag of the fish.

Food for thought to all: Get a contract, get a deposit or run the chance of getting screwed!

 

[schramm]

On another note about the little fish symbol:

These people seem to have the most troubled lives, I think that in hopes of God forgiving them or people thinking that they are religious they fly the flag of the fish. I have seen it 100% of times on contractor vehicles with the words "Handyman" on the side of the truck! The word handyman is yet another thing that I hate - all that means is that you didn't take the time to learn a trade so you got 1/2 ass at a bunch of things and then call yourself handy! I don't think all these people are bad, but in my shop I make sure I am paid in full in CASH if I see that damn fish! Locally we have a huge Christian company :ROFLMAO: that fly the flag of the fish and he hires nothing but x-cons that are "reformed" and fresh out of prison! WHAT??? Would you let that guy in your house? Would you let that guy near your kids? I sure wouldn't but there are checks written to this guy from the government for hiring and helping reform x-cons!

My wife is a school teacher and she is getting hours cut down to part time as there is NO MONEY for the education of our youth yet the government can toss money out to contractors hiring x-cons! I guess that has an upside to it as without our youth having an education, they too will soon be x-cons!

 

[bob]

Without a written contract binding one company to agree with him that they wanted that work done and without a deposit I don't think that he has a leg to stand on. Without paying a copyright fee there is no copywriter....

Bzzzzt..Wrong, thank you for playing.

By the aforementioned Berne Convention any and all creative works are copyrighted by virtue of the fact they exist. No filings, no contracts, nothing, nada, zip, zero is necessary in order to enforce this copyright other than the existence of the work itself.

While filing a formal copyright can grant you additional rights, one of them the ability to seek additional damages, the only thing needed to enforce the basic copyright is to show that you did it first. This bit law is unequivocal and enforceable in any court from small claims up to and including the Supremes.

 

[schramm]

Yes parts of that are very true, in fact most of it! However in this case we have NO PROOF that any of this was even his to begin with. Original work consists of you designing everything from scratch! That means no use of photos from istockphoto or other companies, you have to be the originator of the art. If you don't do an original artwork then you are basically using someone elses art to create your own and you are granted "0" credit for that.

There are exceptions to that rule as well. All photos are sites are allotted an extended license which you can purchase the art for a fee, if you do that then no one else can use it which makes that art yours and anything that you design with that are is considered original.

There is no such thing as I typed over a picture that I bought a limited use to so now it is an original!

 

[G-Artist]

Why???????

Because that is federal law...and has been for about 30 years, give or take. I believe it was the 1976 amendment to the Copyright Law that solidified exclusive jurisdiction to the federal court system...it may have been even earlier. No time to search for an exact date. The law was sweeping in that it transferred ALL IP matters to the federal courts. Including most state trademark law.

As an aside, the U.S. Copyright office has been lobbying Congress for many years to establish a "small claims" type court for copyright infringement cases like the one posted here...to no avail. Since many House and Senate seats are up for election right now it would be prudent to ask the candidates their views on the matter. Especially prudent for anyone in the graphic arts field which covers most posters and readers in this forum.

 

[G-Artist]

Since myself and others have indeed prevailed in small claims court in identical circumstances in many different jurisdictions, I can only conclude that in these matters you don't know your ass from a warm biscuit.

Right... what ever you say mr. I have a PHD in law.

All I can tell you is to read the law.

States courts, at any level, have ZERO JURISDICTION in any IP matter.

You can circumvent that a bit by claiming theft or suing for an unpaid invoice, etc. but you cannot walk into your local county court and file a copyright infringement suit. Even if the clerk accepts your paperwork, the judge or the opposing party will quash it.

Don't beleive me, mr. know-it-all? Try it for yourself. Let us now how it went.

 

[schramm]

The original copyright was written by George Washington but only included books, maps and charts.

In 1976 there was another law which was deemed vague and had dark areas when it came to original artwork. However in 1990 a new law was put in place to protect all original art and giving the artist sole rights to its reproduction.

However I have read that in great detail and it only protects the art of artists that own all parts of the art. Meaning photos or other pieces of your art that are not yours could really be duplicated.

A great example is Disney as they create everything and even have specific fonts that we all know or recognize Disney items by. There art is automatically protected however if Joe Blow uses a picture from the internet or buys a partial use of one from a image depot like iStockphoto.com, there is nothing original about that and that art can be copied by anyone that wants to buy the same image and type the same words over the top of it. How in the world can anyone imagine that they can protect what is not theres?

 

[schramm]

Right... what ever you say mr. I have a PHD in law.

All I can tell you is to read the law.

States courts, at any level, have ZERO JURISDICTION in any IP matter.

You can circumvent that a bit by claiming theft or suing for an unpaid invoice, etc. but you cannot walk into your local county court and file a copyright infringement suit. Even if the clerk accepts your paperwork, the judge or the opposing party will quash it.

Don't beleive me, mr. know-it-all? Try it for yourself. Let us now how it went.

You are right on the money!!! I love people that read 1/2 the story and then are a expert. There is a lot more to copyright then typing letters over a pic and printing it on plastic.

 

[OldPaint]

again if you can call........STOCK PHOTO(public domain)that came on a CD for ANYONE TO USE......and by adding some words on top of it and printing it........you call that a design, i think you would have a problem proving that you and only you could have done this))))))))))