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Legal advice, somebody ripped off my design.

G-Artist

G-Artist

New Member
One more note to the OP.

In order to get statutory damages as well as lawyer fees, etc. you must register the work before commencing suit. Reasonable lawyer fees are not automatic in that the award is in the hand of and the discretion of the judge but it is rare when they are not awarded.

Most likely you will need the services of a law firm only because the Federal Rules of Procedure must be followed and is a nightmare for a novice.

If you go to the U.S. Copyright Office Web page they have all the info. you need to know posted...read it all.
 
"Deposit Please"

"Deposit Please"

New Member
That's a great reason why you should always take a "deposit Please" Once a deposit is taken, we then, have customer read our contract carefully & sign on the dotted line. Your contract shall state that all your design work is your property and shall not be used without your consent. Everything needs to be on paper.
If i were in your shoes, i would approach the pastor of the church & explain to him the whole scenario so he can have a clear understanding & maybe you can get compensated for your design & design time. Not sure who your dealing with at the church or what position they have there, but it doesn't hurt to make sure the pastor has full knowledge of the situation.
 
schramm

schramm

New Member
g-artist and Deposit please,

I could not agree more. If a contract is in place, which normally accompanies a deposit then wording on the contract would protect his LAYOUT that he is proposing. These is a huge difference between artwork and layout. Layout is the property of the design firm and can not be copied but the artwork is fair game. If the artwork (lets say pictures) are those of the hiring Church then you are only being hired to do LAYOUT and NOT design.

Layout and Design are not the same thing and unless they are 100% original the cannot be protected under a copyright ever. Doctoring someone elses images doesn't make it yours, there is NO PERCENTAGE that you can change original artwork to make it yours - cant be done!

Below is a perfect example of how you cannot just use art of someones, change it and make it your own. The % doesn't make a lick of difference if it is not yours to start.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/arts/design/10fair.html
 
G-Artist

G-Artist

New Member
Techman said:
This is not a copy right case. This is a theft of services case..
Click to expand...

Yes it is an IP case because SCOTUS said so in Dowling and a few other cases.

But I agree with you...this should be a "theft" case. Better put it should fall into the realm of Theft By Conversion. The definition of Theft By Conversion is....TbC occurs when someone wrongfully uses property or funds of another for their own purposes. Doesn't that say it all in the instant case posted by the OP??? And it beats the hell out of having to go to federal court which has humongous costs (to us little guys, at least) and persnickity rules plus everyone may have to travel a half-day or more to drive to the court for each and every appearance - which could be 2-3-4 times before it is completely over.
 
G-Artist

G-Artist

New Member
schramm said:
g-artist and Deposit please,

I could not agree more. If a contract is in place, which normally accompanies a deposit then wording on the contract would protect his LAYOUT that he is proposing. These is a huge difference between artwork and layout. Layout is the property of the design firm and can not be copied but the artwork is fair game. If the artwork (lets say pictures) are those of the hiring Church then you are only being hired to do LAYOUT and NOT design.

Layout and Design are not the same thing and unless they are 100% original the cannot be protected under a copyright ever. Doctoring someone elses images doesn't make it yours, there is NO PERCENTAGE that you can change original artwork to make it yours - cant be done!
Click to expand...

I know what you are saying but that isn't exactly correct. It is incident specific. All I can do is tell you to reference "thin copyright."

In a nutshell, I can take some client provided pictures/graphics (which they own or have license for); use suggested type styles, color schemes, etc. and then -- using my skill and imagination -- assemble them into some sort of pleasing collage and I would have exclusive copyright in that work (the collage)...I would NOT have any copyright in the underlying provided items. That is, in essence, an example of "thin copyright." Many cases on that.

If it is your work...you own it and no one has right to use it w/o your express permission (a.k.a. buying it).
 
schramm

schramm

New Member
G-Artist said:
I know what you are saying but that isn't exactly correct. It is incident specific. All I can do is tell you to reference "thin copyright."

In a nutshell, I can take some client provided pictures/graphics (which they own or have license for); use suggested type styles, color schemes, etc. and then -- using my skill and imagination -- assemble them into some sort of pleasing collage and I would have exclusive copyright in that work (the collage)...I would NOT have any copyright in the underlying provided items. That is, in essence, an example of "thin copyright." Many cases on that.

If it is your work...you own it and no one has right to use it w/o your express permission (a.k.a. buying it).
Click to expand...

Never looked at or heard of a thin copyright. I guess over the years customers have abused that one on me as well.

I guess for me I would just rather distance myself from a non paying party or a party that takes me for less then $200 as the time in court is not worth as much as my time working. I know that principal plays part in a suit decision as well as your rights but I don't feel it necessary to waste my time chasing monies that may never come my way or pay an attorney to do so. I have had liens on homes for $30K when I was a contractor doing faux finishing and the only way for them to get them off was by paying me. I am not embarrassed to sue, I just have to make sure it values my time and effort.
The way I see it, in the 20 hours that I chase $200 I could of earned $1000 so that is just mathematical suicide.

To each there own I guess and God bless you for trying to get your money but I still say if you have a contract and a deposit BEFORE you start doing work you save yourself a TON OF HEADACHE!

Thanks for posting that info on Thin copyright!
 
schramm

schramm

New Member
Here is the law word for word:

Copyright law protects authors and artists who create original works from those who might copy their works. A work may be registered with the United States Copyright Office, but the creator is protected by copyright law even if the work is not registered. As has been said, copyright protection attaches as soon as the pen leaves the page. Thus, copyright law provides a private right of action in federal court against anyone who copies, distributes, or makes derivative works without the permission of the creator of the work. Before the copyright owner can bring a suit for infringement of her copyright, however, the Copyright Act places a requirement that the copyright be registered with the Copyright Office

Even if you find the Church in your mind guilty of copyright infringement (which may be), you must register the art with the Copyright office. Now I ask you again, is it worth it?
 
Deaton Design

Deaton Design

New Member
They know better. Being a church does not make them above anyone else. Handle it as you would with a business. I would contact them first and tell them they were not allowed to use the design you came up with, and that you put in x amount of hours coming up with the design. See what they say, then tell them you expect to be compensated for the time you put in on the job. Treat them as you would anyone else.
 
mikefine

mikefine

New Member
I think you should stick a big, bold decal on the sides of the vans

"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL" sign it and call it a day....
 
bob

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
G-Artist said:
Right... what ever you say mr. I have a PHD in law.
Click to expand...

Is it too late to get your money back?

All I can tell you is to read the law.
...
Don't beleive me, mr. know-it-all? Try it for yourself. Let us now how it went.
Click to expand...

I have tried it and have prevailed. The last time was in small claims court in Nevada County in the People's Republic of California in, if memory serves, 2005. I won, they lost, I got paid in full as well as reimbursed for all fees.

The nice thing about small claims court is you don't accuse someone of a crime, merely of owing you money. In a case such as this citing copyright law merely helps to make your claim legitimate.

A fact known to most everyone except, apparently, those with a PhD in law. Moreover, I would assume that being in possession of an advanced degree you would know how it's properly abbreviated. It's PhD or Ph.D, never PHD.
 
G-Artist

G-Artist

New Member
As to registration. A few years back we were doing layouts and sketches with the thought of printing them on various substrates (shirts, decals and the like) and wholesale marketing them. We'd take a month's worth of productivity, stick them on a CD and register the entire portfolio as an unpublished work...all for the same price as a single unit registration. That saves a pile of money. Yes, I am frugal...wife uses a different word....lol.

Very little in the way of layout mock-ups and the like gets into the client's hands w/o a notice of copyright on it. That serves two purposes. If they shop our work and present our layout to another shop then that shop will be on notice, assuming they have a brain and minimal education in the law. Also, should the client have the wherewithal to remove the copyright notice then they have become criminals.

Fraudulent Removal of Copyright Notice. — Any person who, with fraudulent intent, removes or alters any notice of copyright appearing on a copy of a copyrighted work shall be fined not more than $2,500.
 
Doyle

Doyle

New Member
The OP started this thread and hasn't even replied once? I read the whole thing, and I am proud of all of you who have been in similar situations, went to court, and won. I think we have all been there at least once before (I know I have). The whole time I was reading, I kept wondering if we would actually get to SEE this stolen artwork, because my opinion in this matter would really depend on what kind of design we are talking about. Is it custom? Did you design it from scratch? How much time were you billing them for design? More than $500?

If I were you, I would simply just send them a bill, and proceed with collections if they do not pay, but I really wonder if it is a case worth going to court over, guess I would have to SEE the design to give my opinion on that one, good luck!
 
J

John L

New Member
bob said:
A fact known to most everyone except, apparently, those with a PhD in law. Moreover, I would assume that being in possession of an advanced degree you would know how it's properly abbreviated. It's PhD or Ph.D, never PHD.
Click to expand...

Not to stir the pot but, I think YOU were being called "Mr. PhD in law".
 
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