long time adobe user WOWed by corel x4

[Rick]

I have been through that hassle during my time as a production monkey. Cleaning up stuff like that made me keenly aware of production problems whether they are scale related or more usually, lazy inexperienced designer related. Files from other designers? I have a long list of issues I have had to fix in production and 95% are human error or laziness.

If you are designing in scale in a vector program like Auto-Cad, it does not distinguish between scale and full size as long as the operator types in or designs in exact measurements. You can deal with scale in paper space when adding text and measurements if you design it full size. It's when you drag images around, bump things or develop lazy drawing habits that issues arise. Auto-Cad sucks as a graphic design program so your probably not going to get great results when an architectural draftsmen/designer starts designing graphics in Auto-Cad unless they know the production issues real well.

Most of this Corel/Illustrator criticism is user related.

Again, in the projects I work in and all architectural projects I am aware of, you can't do the work unless scaled drawings are developed.

 

[beermonster]

well predominantly litho packaging print here and my tool of choice is illy - only on cs3 at the mo - current climate cant justify the upgrades

i've never used corel - seems its popular in the sign industry - but i have to say in my trade is hardly used at all - illy is the most popular by far, then maybe artpro by some - but pdf is gaining momentum as a file format hugely - then again i prefer illy originating files and all is simples

indesign is awesome at handling pdf files, and we have a few pdf editing tools as well for some litho tricks we need to do (we also need to do zonal trapping sometimes so illy again is very good)

sorry - and i'm purely being sarcy so laugh AT me - but to draw a line in illy - i usually use the "line tool" - sounds simple but it works

at the end of the day however, as stated by a few, corel, illy, freehand, quack, indy - all tools - the best craftsmen use many tools

we dont desighn much here ( i can and do but not often) so we receive customers files for a vast majority of work. colour management is simple, profiled proofers to presses so proofing is simple - but we use the appropriate tools for the appropriate job

 

[Joe Diaz]

Stacy, or anyone else that has this problem: I want you to try this the next time you get a Corel file, or really any file that is imported and the colors appear muted, or wrong.

If I remember right, you go to "file" "color mode" than you can select between "rgb" and "cmyk" In Illustrator. I'm not in front of my mac, which has CS2, at my shop right now, so that could be wrong. But it is in there.

My guess is that the Corel user or what ever software they are using, is designed in RGB and you are setup in Illustrator's default cmyk mode. And that is the cause of your problem, not some flaw in Corel. This would cause those muted colors. It's not a software thing. It's a color mode thing.

It's easy to change on Corel's end too. You simply go into "Color Management", and check the "rgb" or "cmyk" box. Their is NO learning curve at all other than just knowing the setting is there, just like you would need to know it is there in Illy or any other program. But if you feel that your customers can't make those adjustments on their end, simply change it on yours.

 

[Bigdawg]

Joe... thanks but I know how to do that... I know how to match modes... I have been working in high-end color for years... I know how to make native files print... I know color modes intimately and how they affect my printing. It is NOT a knowledge problem on my end.

the casual end-user that sends a pdf or eps doesn't though...

 

[andy]

Rick,

Thanks for the information, it's very helpful.

I know that sign design is something you specialise in so it is interesting to find out that you use illustrator to do the same, and probably better, design work which some of my customers insist on doing (badly) in AutoCad.

Now I know that it's perfectly possible to use Illustrator to do professional standard architectural sign designs I think I need to try and persuade a few customers to put down AutoCad and start using the Illustrator software I know they have available.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Joe... thanks but I know how to do that... I know how to match modes... I have been working in high-end color for years... I know how to make native files print... I know color modes intimately and how they affect my printing. It is NOT a knowledge problem on my end.

the casual end-user that sends a pdf or eps doesn't though...

Who cares what they know or not. That is what I am saying, If you can make those changes easily on your end, what is the problem???

That is why I keep comparing it to converting text to curves. That isn't a software thing, it's a user thing. If I have to print or plot their file, I have to fix that or tell them to fix that. That isn't the software's fault. At least when it comes to color, I don't have to tell them anything, I simply make adjustments on my end. And it's easy to do.

 

[signmeup]

If you take your Corel or Flexi files somewhere for output you will be turned away or laughed at.

Not so. If you send a Corel file to Merritt Graphics (for instance) you will get a pleasant email asking you to save it as an .ai file and resend. So you you open your file and click "save as .ai" then resend it. I'm worn out just thinking about the huge workload involved.(sarcasm) If you remember next time that Merritt needs .ai files you avoid the email and the resending part....even easier.....and the colours have always been great.

 

[Bigdawg]

Who cares what they know or not. That is what I am saying, If you can make those changes easily on your end, what is the problem???

That is why I keep comparing it to converting text to curves. That isn't a software thing, it's a user thing. If I have to print or plot their file, I have to fix that or tell them to fix that. That isn't the software's fault. At least when it comes to color, I don't have to tell them anything, I simply make adjustments on my end. And it's easy to do.

My point... way back then... and now...

is that color handling is not intuitive in Corel... too much room for mistakes. Illustrator has the one-up on Corel IN THAT AREA. In my opinion.

I have used both of them since the late 80's... I understand what you are saying.. but to say tough luck it's what you gave me to a customer - or spend extra time holding their hand.. or fixing their mistakes because they DON'T understand how color works... that's not needed when I get an eps or pdf generated from Illy. Often times it is with Corel.

Not going to argue about it much more, cause there is not much more I can say. I have worked in color printing since before the computers did it for us. I've worked in both these programs damn near as long as you've been around. I understand your passion... but mine is equal in this area... it's where I made my money for years... teaching printing companies, ad agencies and others in the industry how to set things up for optimum color accuracy. I can't agree that in a client-provided file based workflow that Corel is better with color. It isn't.

In an in-house work environment where you have control from beginning to end... creation to output.. then yes, Corel has some great tools. But outside of that? I just don't think they do.

 

[Joe Diaz]

My point... way back then... and now...

is that color handling is not intuitive in Corel... too much room for mistakes. Illustrator has the one-up on Corel IN THAT AREA. In my opinion.

You are right about that being an opinion. But in my opinion you are wrong about it not being intuitive. It is very intuitive. You see the fact that you can develop custom color profiles as pitfall, I see not having the ability to develop custom color profiles as a pitfall.

... but to say tough luck it's what you gave me to a customer - or spend extra time holding their hand.. or fixing their mistakes because they DON'T understand how color works... that's not needed when I get an eps or pdf generated from Illy. Often times it is with Corel.

What is the difference if someone from illy designs in RGB mode and you have to change from CMYK to RGB, than when someone does it Corel.... or any other program? AGAIN... I make the point that Corel isn't the problem. The fact that there isn't one design program and one color profile would be the issue you are having. Which as a whole I don't see as a problem at all. The benefits of having multiple design programs to choose from greatly out numbers the benefits of a world with only one... In my opinion.

 

[Bigdawg]

Sure it's my opinion just like your opinion. You don't get what I am saying and you are wrong with "The fact that there isn't one design program and one color profile would be the issue you are having." and "You see the fact that you can develop custom color profiles as pitfall, I see not having the ability to develop custom color profiles as a pitfall."

I don't have an "issue" and if you would re-read my last post you will see where it says in your closed end environment Corel is peachy-keen. And my profiles are developed - in versaworks with an I-1 system... and yes Joe, I do understand the profiling in Corel too.

I have over 25 years of experience working with high-end color.

I have real-world experience teaching other people to use their programs (including Illy, Corel and YES!! even Publisher) to get accurately output color.

You can defend the program all you want.. there really isn't a reason too. No matter how terrific the tools of the program are... they are not intuitive for an end user that doesn't understand color theory. In the real world I deal with those people every day.

I have no problem or issue or anything else with ANYONE that chooses Corel for their program... or Flexi... or anything else. Great! As a professional's program of choice - it may be terrific. Every program has it's place... and Corel's color handling isn't it if you don't get what needs to be done to make it work. Most people don't.

And you may want to re-read the part about outputting eps and pdf files provided from corel - I can fix any cdr file that comes in... but I shouldn't have to!

 

[Tim Aucoin]

Thanks for all the passion and deep thoughts coming out in this thread!
This thread has inspired me to actually log into my Lynda.com account and start taking ALL the courses on Illustrator CS4... 1 hour this morning and WOW! I've always taken the "self taught" approach, but I think I'm in for some major information overload over the next few weeks... there are over 30 hours of training videos to watch! One of my goals for the next year is to become a better designer. Sure, I have one on staff, but this is more of a personal goal! I have the book at home that was referenced on another thread (I forget the name... it's a design book... I think Pat recommended it)... anyhow, I figure since I have all the tools readily available to me and a brain in this head of mine that still has a little life left in it, why not see what I can do with some Illy training!

I'm not getting into the Illy / Corel debate, as I believe they are both excellent programs! I am a Mac user, hence my decision to (seriously) learn Illy CS4!

Thanks again for this thread... it's funny what inspires us!

 

[luggnut]

alright Rick's points about layers and the new found transparent gradient in cs4 have me leaning towards illy, but corel does have some shaping tools i really like (polygon tool..etc..) i have been an illy user for a while so i'm sure that plays a part in that i'm familiar with it.

Joe Diaz.. i thought you had a post a few months back about color issues with corel when sending files off to someone like 4over?

i haven't used corel resently enough to have much of an opinion about its color now, but in the past it was the main reason for my switch to illy.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Joe Diaz.. i thought you had a post a few months back about color issues with corel when sending files off to someone like 4over?

Not me. I don't use 4over, and I don't have problems with colors when I send things away to print. Usually the only problems I have had, has been me designing in RGB (cause I like the colors I can get in RGB) and others being setup in CMYK. If I know I'm sending art to someone else, I tend to set up in CMYK to avoid that, although I know it's supper easy to change it on their end. Any other profiles I change in Corel have more to do with calibrating my monitor to come closer at matching my output, than changing my output.

 

[The Vector Doctor]

Not so. If you send a Corel file to Merritt Graphics (for instance) you will get a pleasant email asking you to save it as an .ai file and resend. So you you open your file and click "save as .ai" then resend it. I'm worn out just thinking about the huge workload involved.(sarcasm) If you remember next time that Merritt needs .ai files you avoid the email and the resending part....even easier.....and the colours have always been great.

Sorry I am referring to "outside of the sign world". Most of the big name design agencies use Macs/Adobe. The "typical" service bureau prefers Adobe produced ai/eps. Almost every college teaches Adobe. These are just facts.

I am not arguing which is better. The sign world has mostly adopted PC's and Corel. The print/design world is still predominantly mac/adobe

 

[Joe Diaz]

I am not arguing which is better. The sign world has mostly adopted PC's and Corel. The print/design world is still predominantly mac/adobe

Yeah that seems to be the case.

I have also noticed a lot of screenprinters and apparel shops use Corel too. At least they all seem to in this area.

 

[beermonster]

i love people desighning in rgb and then converting to rgb - all them 4 colour blacks to muck about with - beautiful

 

[Replicator]

It would be a fantastic thing if all color profiles were standardized between all programs, printers, rips and alike . . . but it will never happen !

 

[Joe Diaz]

It would be a fantastic thing if all color profiles were standardized between all programs, printers, rips and alike . . . but it will never happen !

And how can it? We are dealing with thousands, or more, different kinds of monitors, printers, scanners, etc... all made by different manufactures... all using different parts and technology. This is why I think Corel's Color Management is one of the many tools that makes corel soo great.

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Wow! Four pages of debate over color. That is a good thing. It is that very same debate that spurs the competition between the software manufacturers to keep improving the software that we all rely on everyday.

First of all, let me state that my "goto" is SignLab. The import filters are great, the output colors from are "dead-on", and their "weld" are second to none. The addition of GIMP, and the native ability to enlarge without much distortion (if any) also keeps me from having to "grab different tools".

Nonetheless, I am forced to have the various different tools if no other reason than to make my job easier. As Eric and Stacy have stated, Adobe is an industry standard. When dealing with large design agencies the ONLY issues that you can go back and forth with are related to design. To go back and forth with things such as: "I can't open it" or "My software changed it", etc., will lead to certain doom.

Liken it to a mechanic having seven or eight different wrenches of the same size, yet different lengths, different configurations, etc. All that to be able to achieve the same goal - fix the damned car

If it was from my original post, I never meant to start any debate over color. I simply pointed out a couple of areas that Corel still needs to work on. Unfortunately, I am not anywhere near as well versed in Illy to do the same (still learning, but not as bad as I originally perceived). Luggnut pointed out that Corel has come a long way, and they have and should be recognized for that. To be fair, I wish that Adobe would get rid of their size limitations, although they are improving too.

The most attractive feature of Corel (again, IMO) is the price. To be able to get what we get for what they charge is a godsend - even if it is not our or anybody's) "goto". I disagree that any "one" package is "all" you need. It is a major flaw in this industry, which in turn, leads people to believe that "all I need to spend is $399 and I have all of the software that I need". Could one get by the majority of the time - sure they can - but is it as efficient?

From what I have seen it seems to go like this:

Print/Design people: Adobe (citing colors)
Sign people: Corel, Cadlink, SAi, etc. (citing cost, tools, size and intuitiveness)
Apparel people: Corel (citing cost and the availability of digitizing software)
Architectural people: AutoCAD, Solidworks
"General Public": Publisher, Paint, Word

If we want to deal with any of the industry pros as customers we must learn how to cope/deal with what they have - thus the need for different tools in the box. The general public just returns to go .

Software packages are tools, just like our equipment. If we want to keep expanding our horizons we must recognize that we need to buy (or at least have access to) various tools - as well as know how to use them.

 

[The Vector Doctor]

One thing for sure Adobe is VERY stubborn. The changes to the software are not that dramatic. One thing they do have is stability and predictability.

It has taken a dozen versions to get to multipage documents. Their previous answer... If you want multipage documents, use Indesign.

Page size limitations. They are inching up gradually but are still not at Corels' Keep in mind that Illustrator was created long before anyone designed anything 10 feet wide. Pagemaker, Quark, and early versions of Illustrator had 30-40 inch page size limitations. This SW was designed for the purpose of the print world. Think magazines, books, brochures. You could not print 10 foot wide banners not too long ago.

I also wish Illustrator had the more intuitive polygon and contour/outline tools from Corel

I still prefer Illustrator but that is probably because of my Mac background and over a dozen years of experience. I don't have to think about it. When I try Corel, I am totally lost. Every Adobe shortcut is hardwired into my brain