Material Failure or Damaged by customer?

[Joe Diaz]

Here is the statement I took offense over:

"It's good to see you still haven't lost your ability to completely miss the point. I thought during your time away you might have improved your reading comprehension skills."

Don't take offense to it. It wasn't directed at you or anyone else. Just one person. You've been here a short time. You've possibly been here long enough to have seen that I'm polite to 99% of the people here, this person I am not polite to. Gino has earned that over time, he doesn't deserve it. If you had been here long enough you would understand why. Stick around long enough and you will see.

I wasn't speaking about the OP's state of mind. I was talking about the customer's possible state of mind and even used the 12 Angry Men film example to illustrate it. Don't jump me or Gino about missing a point when you yourself appear to have done so.

Have I? You also stated Gino comments were the "least prideful on this thread". The customer is not on this thread so that is why I naturally assumed that if Gino's comments were the "least prideful" then by default, when you said that, you were speaking of the state of mind of other members on this thread.

In the short time I've been here and after reading many of Gino's comments I've concluded that this might not be a person with high level reading or writing skills and that my friend is not something a dignified adult jumps on to get one over on somebody. Or to make oneself feel superior to. Especially when you get all the positive affirmation and ego stroking a young man of your age and skill level not only deserves, but should make you know better.

I'm not "jumping on" because of his reading skills or to feel superior. I'm jumping on him, because the guy is bully and has been a jerk to me an many others on this forum. "inferior complex" is just a taste.

We are in total agreement about each case being different and everyone being entitled to handle it as they see fit and I certainly can understand someone's hesitancy to bend over backwards for a customer they believe is lying. But in reality, we're talking about a minimal cost problem with a very low risk, high reward solution potential for the OP. IMO, digging his heals in too hard to make his point or to not feel taken advantage of just doesn't seem worth the fuss over such a small fix.

That's assuming that a person would refuse to do the work just to make a point or to not feel taken advantage of, or that it's a small fix. There would be many other reasons for a shop to not want to get in the habit of fixing problems that they didn't cause. For some shops it may not be just a simple fix considering other factors.. It could take a little while to remove vinyl. We all know how unpredictable vinyl removal can be, what type of material it was, etc. etc. Then you have to print the graphic and install the graphic, it certainty wouldn't be a $20 fix at our shop. Then you have put the other paying job on hold so you are losing money there too. Is it a lot of money? Maybe not to you. It could be to others and perhaps that's the reason they may be hesitant rather than your theory that a person is just trying to make a point or feel a certain way.

Especially when the risk is so huge if the OP takes too hard a line, the customer misconstrues it and is the type that is going to tell everybody he knows about how he perceived the confrontation.

If the customer is a liar and does spread the word that OP didn't fix his truck, there is a good chance others are well aware that the liar is often times untruthful, and they would naturally take his word with a grain of salt. We once had such a client. When we did fire him, it had no negative effect what-so-ever on our business. And I'm sure he has bad mouthed our business up one side and down the other.

But speaking of reputations, it can also get out of hand if you get the reputation of providing charity too often. So you sometimes have to choose who you help wisely... and believe me some people aren't always going to be extremely understanding when you helped John fix his truck but cannot afford to help all of John's friends.

Here's a good example. We once used a product called lusterboard. For years and years and years it was our go-to product. Then something happened to it. Years ago all of our lusterboard signs that were made after 2007 started to de-laminate. A sign product that was going 10 or more years in most cases, was now failing in 2 or 3 years in all cases. we couldn't get help from the distributors or the manufactures to fix that problem, but it wasn't our customers fault so we took it on the chin. It was really bad here. Imagine redoing 2 or 3 years of your most popular sign type. If the OP's customer would have stopped by, we certainly wouldn't have been able to help him during those days. It didn't help that the economy was crap at the time.

We didn't want to get the reputation of making signs that fall apart, so we did what I still believe was the right thing to do. We got a reputation then. We got a reputation that we make things right. We also possibly got the reputation that we had bad choices in materials (possibly amplified by the Avery debacle years earlier). We survived though.

Anyway, I'm telling this story because do Remember my sandblasted sign story from earlier in this thread? Well during that time when we were running around fixing lusterboard signs, the client with the sandblasted sign (not lusterboard) emails us to tell us that his sign is de-laminating. His sign can't de-laminate. Our guess is he heard this term from one of our other clients, and was hoping he could get a brand new sign out of the deal too. So people like that do exist.

Am I suggesting we shudder in fear and not stand up for ourselves and our policies? No, not at all. I'm simply suggesting that we need to weigh the risk/reward ratio that this type of situation presents.

Agreed, that's all I'm saying too.

I don't think you quite understood the reference to "pride" and its implications when we cling to it too closely like a big shield against appearing weak or indecisive, which I do think is a small part of why the OP opened the thread to begin with. He had doubts about what to do, didn't have a solid plan of action or policy already in place and wanted to know how to protect himself from getting taken advantage of.

This last comment seems at odds with your earlier comment: "I wasn't speaking about the OP's state of mind." But now you are talking about the OP and "we". I realize at the end of your earlier post you were talking about the customers pride, but in that same post you were also talking about the OP and others who have chimed in. That is what I was talking about. You seem like a smart guy, and I'm smart enough to know what pride means, so let's assume we both know what pride means.

You and your family are free to run your business as you see fit as is the OP, myself or even Gino is. You have the luxury of being born into a hard working, highly skilled family that has operated in a fairly small, limited competition market place for quite a long time. Not everyone we share these pages has been so fortunate. Your business's reaction to a similar scenario might be far different if you were in a big city with tons of equally or higher skilled competition AND many kids in their garages lowballing everybody also.

Be careful about assuming too much about our business. I don't think our market is quite as small as you may think (or have heard from others who clearly don't know) If we had to rely on sign jobs from our local market, we would have shut our doors years ago. The fact is customers in our town and surrounding towns make up a tiny portion of or clientele. Either way, I would argue word travels much faster in small town. Anyone else who lives in one would back me up on that.

Another thing you should know about me is that I haven't just worked for this family business. For years I worked for a larger shop in a larger city, I'm aware of how reputations work.

My ultimate point was and still is, there really is no right or wrong answer for how the OP should handle this, just the one that makes the most sense to him and in the end preserves his good standing in the particular marketplace he plies his trade in.

I would agree that is was the reason for my objection to Gino's statement about "inferior complex".

I think we've worn this one out, so I'm going to get my weekend going and walk the dog. Have a good one.

You too.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I can admit when I'm wrong. I disagree with him and I do think he misunderstood my post, but I shouldn't have made fun of his reading abilities. That was wrong. I apologize. Sorry Gino.

 

[Techman]

He claims there was a large air bubble that he tried to press down and it cracked.

Read the original post. The customer ADMITTED he tried to manipulate the vinyl.
No doubt about it. He voided any warranty,, implied or otherwise as soon as he said he did it. Where is the doubt that he did it? The lie comes in when he said it was a bubble.

All the he said she said,, alleged lie or otherwise is a waste of time.

Ok, the guy embellished his story. He said there was a large bubble and it blew out when he tried to "press" it down. Nope. More likely he tried to press the rip down and it lifted again anyway because the adhesive was compromised. Perf vinyl is tough stuff. We all know that.

That torn vinyl was not a blow out. It is a rip more like a gouge. More like he or someone using the van was placing a ladder on the roof of his mini van. Or a bike.

Who on the entire forum has ever observed a single large bubble on a perf install? None have. Simple deduction leads us to that conclusion because the perf holes are larger than the surface area of the vinyl. No way a bubble was under it.

As for replacing the job FREE is a call best made by the installer. Personally I wouldn't take any responsibility for that kinds of damage for any reason. Maybe I would give a small discount because all it would take is print some more. But, that replacement will take at least 2 hours of labor with removal, print, clean up, and reinstall.

 

[DrunknMonk]

charge customer but do it at cost of materials.

 

[Gino]

Soooooo...........................?

After sifting through all the unnecessary name calling and complete nonsense, have ya figured out how you want to handle it ??

I'm sure you can see, there are many ways to handle the matter and your own conduct in such delicate situations. The question is.... if you ever find out what really happened, was it worth whichever direction you chose ??

Good luck

 

[HDvinyl]

We had a customer come in saying he wants us to repair his back window perf. He claims there was a large air bubble that he tried to press down and it cracked. I am calling BS on this one.

Tell him exactly that, "Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm calling BS."

I hate liars and fire customers all the time.

BUT, if you need new customers, fix it for free and move along.

 

[HulkSmash]

So, I've read all the recommendations, accusations, reasoning and can't find where the customer went wrong, unless he IS in fact, a bold faced liar.

You said he's a nice guy, a new customer and he tried to fix a flaw in your work. I know for a fact, it's sometimes hard to see a small bubble in vinyl, let alone perf. It does look as if there was a problem here, but no one can be sure what created it or who started it. So, if it was there and he handled it wrong, it still needs to be fixed. Your dime in my opinion. If he gouged it and is lying about it, big whoop, like mentioned, about $20 in materials and some time. You now know how to address this customer in the future, if he returns.

Calling someone a liar, when you have no proof of it, is sometimes a death sentence against all future work..... and not just his. Most businesses are built on reputation and if you go around calling people liars and cheats, no one will wanna do business with you regardless of who was at fault for a $20 repair. Is your future and reputation not worth you taking a stride to the side ??

I'd fix it in a heart beat. I just did it yesterday and to a much higher number than $20. Mistakes should be figured into all calculations regardless of who is at fault. The less you don't need to use that, the more you save up for when it does happen. It's like a little insurance plan built into things. We call it the 'SH!T factor. Not to be confused with the PITA factor.

Do as you like, it's just a suggestion from someone whose been around the block a few times. ​

This is where you separate very successful to just getting by.
I'm glad someone agreed with me. I had something all typed up the other day, and just deleted it to avoid confrontation.

Did he most likely cause this? Absolutely. Do you have proof he didn't, No not at all.
Are you going to spend 2-3 hrs in back and forward on here, and emails deciding weather to fix it or not?

Time = Money. At this point you've spent more time in labor, researching, emailing, visiting the customer..etc etc, then in cost to repair those damages.

You spend YEARS building up reputation on your business. All it takes is 1 minute to tear it all down. 1 bad review a future customer to see.
Don't give them a reason to give you one.

Sadly sometimes we just have to swallow our pride, and just do what you have to do to keep them happy.