Mutoh Valuejet 1604

[randya]

I I'm asking how that is possible when the Eco-Sol ink set is the standard 4 color-process (CMYK).

The simple answer is that cartridge based inks, in particular the Epson ink set (as well as most of the 3rd party ink sets I have looked at) are not 'process-color' CMYK. They build in an extended gamut to help fill the gap of spot colors used in 'process-color' press work to product a wider range of colors than 'process-color' CMYK

But I now see why the Roland is able to produce much better looking color than the Mutoh by adding in the LC & LM inks.

The Roland Max ink is the same Epson ink as the Mutoh Eco Ultra.
So the color gamut of the ink itself is exactly the same.
lc and lm are just dilute versions of C and M and add no gamut what so ever.
They are used with larger droplet heads for smoothing.
The DX5 heads in the ValueJets, Mimakis and Rolands use a small droplet size for this smoothing.

RIP software's convert any document you throw at it to CMYK data. Therefore it can process any data, and make it printable.

RIPs typically convert to L a b color space.
And output to 4 color (labeled CMYK) to the printer.
It is actually the image color space along with the profile (including rendering intents) that ultimately determines what gets printed how.

So if you have an expanded color space that is larger than process-color CMYK, and you design in process-color CMYK, you've clipped a great deal of color out of the process that you will not get back.

On the other hand, if you design in RGM, you will be clipped to the profile gamut as demonstrated in the gamut picture I posted. A much larger gamut.

Of course, all depending on your profile, rendering intents, and color managment workflow.

Putting a RGB document into a RIP that's converting those values to the closest CMYK values is putting a lot of "hope" when you need to be "sure" what your going to output. You never know what the translation of that color is going to become in the output and 9/10 it produces "dull" & "muddy" looking values of what the CMYK color should look like.

The RIP does not convert to the closest CMYK values, it converts through the profile, to the closest gamut position of the ink set based on rendering intent. Again, larger gamut gives you color outside the process-color CMYK.

This is perhaps the biggest reason profiles for the same machine and media are different for different ink sets. None of these 'digital' ink sets are process-color CMYK, and there is no widely accepted 'standard' being used.

Of course there can be translation issues, based on rendering intents, profiles and color workflow, but those can still exist in CMYK designed artwork.

 

[Graphicholik3]

I appreciate the kind words, Brandon, but without knowing for sure who you are and what the serial # is, I have no real reference point to work off of. I didnt recognize you from your profile, and found your name Brandon in an early post, so I am guessing now perhaps you are Steves son from VGI Graphics. If you will verify that then I can look at our records and make an informed response.

On extended warranty.
I understand that our warranty policy is that the warranty service can be extended WHILE the machine is still under warranty just by purchasing the extended warranty, once the machine is out of warranty - a service inspection is required to insure that the printer is still in factory specification before extended warranty is granted, that inspection must be paid for by the customer. So perhaps this is the situation you are talking about for denied extended warranty?

thank you,
randya

This is Brandon, correct. What informed response would that be? I've explained our situation above numerous times. And directly to your bosses about almost a year ago. Our tech even got into it with them because you guys always try blaming everyone else, and we've all had it with your guys' cowardly business approach. They work on these machines everyday, and they've never ever experienced a machine with so many issues. We got a lemon from Mutoh, and you guys turned your backs on us rather than doing the right thing.

And no, when we purchased your printer you didn't offer an extended warranty if you read above the situation I clearly explained it. It's way beyond any warranty talk, or anything else coming out of our pockets. What doesn't Mutoh understand about selling us a product that NEVER worked, and could never be repaired? Because Roland sure seems to understand everything, and that's why we are now proud Roland users.

What is your response to the fact that your own certified tech(s) are sick of trying to figure out the broken Mutoh that just keeps continuing to break. Like I said they threw in the towel, so did we. Bottom line is you guys should of either; A.) Replaced the machine or B.) Refunded us our money so we could purchase one that worked.

Numerous manufacturers made it clear to us that if we ever experienced those problems it would been a no questions asked replacing of the machine to make us happy. Either that or a refund so we could purchase a machine we were happy with.

I've built relationships with 3M, Avery, Adobe over the years & now Roland yet Mutoh is still the only company I've had issues with. Why? Because you guys point fingers, blame everyone else, and are the only company that lacks the ethical and sense-able approach to making things right for their customers.

Bottom Line: You guys don't stand behind your product. Offering someone whose experienced so many problems as us more options to keep spending money with you guys hoping that it one day eventually gets fixed is a pretty shady approach at "customer service." I could understand if we had minor problems, or if we beat the printer up as far as putting a lot of hours on it. But the printer has barely been ran, and the down time out weighs the print time by a 5/95 ratio. Any one of your certified techs would testify to that as again I state they are sick of working on this lemon.

Put yourself in our shoes. You go out on a limb spending $25,000.00+ on a machine you expect that machine to work, period. You shouldn't have anyone working on it daily or monthly when it's barely even printed a couple jobs. The machine continues to give you problems, constantly. The manufacturer keeps pointing fingers, and pushing it off until the warranty expires. After that we continue to report these problems to you very frequently (daily, weekly, monthly), and we still continue to waste money (material, ink, & techs). Yet the machine still never gets fixed cause as soon as we think it does, something else goes wrong. We clearly know how to run these machines, and since day one of owning a Mutoh the techs were made aware of that. And they know it has nothing to do with user errors or mistakes. Now your telling me it's on us to be at fault for purchasing a lemon, and being reasonable with you guys until you guys finally just brush us off and leave us hanging with a broken machine? And your telling me if that money came out of your pocket you would just brush it off like $25,000.00+ is something we all can just forget about?

You would think you guys would do everything you had to to make the machine work again, and to satisfy us. So that we would be proud Mutoh users. Instead you guys leave us with your problem, and go on.

 

[Graphicholik3]

The simple answer is that cartridge based inks, in particular the Epson ink set (as well as most of the 3rd party ink sets I have looked at) are not 'process-color' CMYK. They build in an extended gamut to help fill the gap of spot colors used in 'process-color' press work to product a wider range of colors than 'process-color' CMYK




The Roland Max ink is the same Epson ink as the Mutoh Eco Ultra.
So the color gamut of the ink itself is exactly the same.
lc and lm are just dilute versions of C and M and add no gamut what so ever.
They are used with larger droplet heads for smoothing.
The DX5 heads in the ValueJets, Mimakis and Rolands use a small droplet size for this smoothing.



RIPs typically convert to L a b color space.
And output to 4 color (labeled CMYK) to the printer.
It is actually the image color space along with the profile (including rendering intents) that ultimately determines what gets printed how.

So if you have an expanded color space that is larger than process-color CMYK, and you design in process-color CMYK, you've clipped a great deal of color out of the process that you will not get back.

On the other hand, if you design in RGM, you will be clipped to the profile gamut as demonstrated in the gamut picture I posted. A much larger gamut.

Of course, all depending on your profile, rendering intents, and color managment workflow.




The RIP does not convert to the closest CMYK values, it converts through the profile, to the closest gamut position of the ink set based on rendering intent. Again, larger gamut gives you color outside the process-color CMYK.

This is perhaps the biggest reason profiles for the same machine and media are different for different ink sets. None of these 'digital' ink sets are process-color CMYK, and there is no widely accepted 'standard' being used.

Of course there can be translation issues, based on rendering intents, profiles and color workflow, but those can still exist in CMYK designed artwork.

I already stated my points. And I've done all the testing myself yet it still didn't prove a thing to me. All it did was waste material, and produce sad looking colors.

Now your trying to say that the extra Roland Inks LC & LM don't make up for better color. How could you even say that? I use the printer everyday, it works, and it produces much better color than the Mutoh could ever achieve. The prints don't lie!

Like I said 3M, Avery, Adobe, Pantone, and now Roland all say the same yet Mutoh doesn't. This topic is now a lost cause, I'm fine I produce great looking prints so I'll leave it at that.

 

[randya]

This is Brandon, correct. What informed response would that be?

Hi, Brandon and please tell your Dad I said hi.
I am sorry for your frustration and disatisfaction.

I believe that all the times I worked with you and your dad it was on color issues. So, I have not seen nor serviced the machine and am not up to speed on what all occurred and what was found during those service calls, but we do keep a record of all service calls, parts, etc.

I do know that Mutoh often goes beyond it's obligations to try and resolve issues, but again I dont everything that has occurred between you and Mutoh.

So I need to get the history on all this before I can make an informed response.

As far as the extended warranty, I stated our policy as I understand it, and under those conditions I am not aware of anyone who has been denied an extended warranty while the machine was still under warranty, or out of warranty and still in spec.

I was not at the sale of this printer, so I don't know if you were offered an extended warranty at that time or not, as well, I dont know if you inquired about one. Since we dont sell directly, this would have been through a dealer and apparently 4 or 5 years ago. I would expect that you understood that the machine came with a warranty at that time and would eventually expire, that is usually pretty clear in the paperwork.

 

[AUTO-FX]

What is your point with all this, Graphaholick? Here you have Randya, a great guy who is more than willing to take the time to go the extra mile and try to help, and on one hand you praise him and then turn right around and use him for a target for your frustration. You wont even ALLOW him to help you, as you state that this is a "lost cause". If it is a "lost cause", it HAS been since before you STARTED your ranting and slamming here. So quit throwing it in Randys face and let him offer some assistance, or QUIT YOUR DAMN WHINING AND GO HOME.

 

[Gino]

If I may make a suggestion.

Instead of passing your pleasantries and dirty laundry on the site here, where it won't do a single sole any good... could you please take this crap behind closed doors and PM each other and take care of business in a professional manner ??

​

TMI​

 

[Graphicholik3]

What is your point with all this, Graphaholick? Here you have Randya, a great guy who is more than willing to take the time to go the extra mile and try to help, and on one hand you praise him and then turn right around and use him for a target for your frustration. You wont even ALLOW him to help you, as you state that this is a "lost cause". If it is a "lost cause", it HAS been since before you STARTED your ranting and slamming here. So quit throwing it in Randys face and let him offer some assistance, or QUIT YOUR DAMN WHINING AND GO HOME.

And you're who? This isn't any of your business. And it seems to me like your the one whining. If your nosy enough to comment than you should be nosy enough to read and get your facts straight. Do you really lack that much common sense? Don't come on here demanding me to quit anything when you have no f'n clue what we've experienced with this company. So go mind your own business somewhere else unless you plan on taking a trip to my shop and letting me know what your issue is to my face, drama queen.

 

[Graphicholik3]

If I may make a suggestion.

Instead of passing your pleasantries and dirty laundry on the site here, where it won't do a single sole any good... could you please take this crap behind closed doors and PM each other and take care of business in a professional manner ??

​

TMI​

It's a forum, and it's meant for everyone to see. All I'm doing is sharing my experience with Mutoh. Let me take $25,000.00+ for you, and see you act like it's no big deal. And it looks to me like I've been 100% clear, and professional the whole time. If you were in my shoes you'd think otherwise!

Again you don't have to read. I'm dealing with Mutoh not asking for anyone's input or feedback on my situation unless you work for Mutoh and have a solution for me. Thank you.

 

[GAC05]

Brandon
this is an interesting topic.
I am sorry to hear how things have worked out between your company & Mutoh.

I think you have made it pretty clear your issues with Mutoh's service and support.
If you would, can you explain what issues with the 1604 stopped you from using it in production for 95% of the time you have owned it.

I have the smaller 1304 under a Xerox lease.
I've had it for a little over a year now and while there have been some problems overall it has been doing very well for the level of printing I need.
So I'd like to know what might be in store for me in the near future.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Baz]

WTF .... All Fred wanted was Mutoh reviews in the "reviews" section. Look what he got .... ....

 

[randya]

Now your trying to say that the extra Roland Inks LC & LM don't make up for better color. How could you even say that?

Because they dont extend gamut.
If you dilute C and M you dont get more gamut, you get the ability to smooth with large dots.

We use the same lc and lm in our 100" with the DX4 heads, because the DX4 heads use a larger droplet size.

Again, if this is Max ink, this is EXACTLY the same ink that the ValueJet uses.

 

[tomence]

He got more than a review. He got the real deal.

 

[Graphicholik3]

Hi, Brandon and please tell your Dad I said hi.
I am sorry for your frustration and disatisfaction.

I believe that all the times I worked with you and your dad it was on color issues. So, I have not seen nor serviced the machine and am not up to speed on what all occurred and what was found during those service calls, but we do keep a record of all service calls, parts, etc.

I do know that Mutoh often goes beyond it's obligations to try and resolve issues, but again I dont everything that has occurred between you and Mutoh.

So I need to get the history on all this before I can make an informed response.

As far as the extended warranty, I stated our policy as I understand it, and under those conditions I am not aware of anyone who has been denied an extended warranty while the machine was still under warranty, or out of warranty and still in spec.

I was not at the sale of this printer, so I don't know if you were offered an extended warranty at that time or not, as well, I dont know if you inquired about one. Since we dont sell directly, this would have been through a dealer and apparently 4 or 5 years ago. I would expect that you understood that the machine came with a warranty at that time and would eventually expire, that is usually pretty clear in the paperwork.

Hi Randy, and will do!

 

[randya]

If I may make a suggestion.

Instead of passing your pleasantries and dirty laundry on the site here, where it won't do a single sole any good... could you please take this crap behind closed doors and PM each other and take care of business in a professional manner ??

​

TMI
​

I am willing.

I have no problem if someone wants to write Mutoh a bad review, as long as it is valid.
Heck, we're not perfect.
I would like to see the other side of this argument posted for balance. There are two sides to every argument, as you have seen, my friend, lol

I think the ink/gamut issue is an important one to understand for a lot of people, but that probably should be in a regular post and not the header.

 

[Graphicholik3]

Brandon
this is an interesting topic.
I am sorry to hear how things have worked out between your company & Mutoh.

I think you have made it pretty clear your issues with Mutoh's service and support.
If you would, can you explain what issues with the 1604 stopped you from using it in production for 95% of the time you have owned it.

I have the smaller 1304 under a Xerox lease.
I've had it for a little over a year now and while there have been some problems overall it has been doing very well for the level of printing I need.
So I'd like to know what might be in store for me in the near future.

wayne k
guam usa

Hey Wayne,

You can PM me for any specific questions. As for problems, the list is far too long to list. We've replaced every single part in this machine. And we have our experts who are certified/referred by Mutoh to work on it. I pay them for a reason, and when they suggest the manufacturer should of replaced it since we first had the problems who would you believe? It's their job to make sure machines run to keep us profitable. When they can't fix something what does that say about the product?

Like I stated previously since day 1 we had problem after problem. And we will no longer spend any money on it unless we were able to be guaranteed a fix so we could sell it immediately. It shouldn't matter if the product cost us $25.00 or $25,000.00 if it's a "lemon" that's constantly causing problems the company should stand behind their product. And that's what Mutoh failed to do! They kept dragging us on and on.

So now all I'm doing is providing my experience to save anyone else the headache in the future. We have been around since 1994, and we bring over 30 years experience to the table. We aren't out to complain or stir up anything for no reason. But when we get treated poorly are we supposed to take a $25,000+ printer, put it in the trash & take the loss, than go on with our lives? I'm letting everyone know that we needed the help, and we didn't get it.

 

[Gino]

It's a forum, and it's meant for everyone to see. All I'm doing is sharing my experience with Mutoh. Let me take $25,000.00+ for you, and see you act like it's no big deal. And it looks to me like I've been 100% clear, and professional the whole time. If you were in my shoes you'd think otherwise!

Again you don't have to read. I'm dealing with Mutoh not asking for anyone's input or feedback on my situation unless you work for Mutoh and have a solution for me. Thank you.

You and rand are turning this into a car wreck and everyone loves to 'Rubberneck'. You two have just gone off the deep end. You've both managed to take a professional conversation and turn it into something ugly.

I feel for your lose of $25,000, but here is not the place to do it. In fact, your posts are so long, I don't know how long you've had this/these problems, but I think the time has passed for any remedies. If they couldn't fix it before and you still don't know how to use it or can't make it work..... why haven't you sold it or contacted an attorney to take action ??

Me ?? Give you $25,000 ?? Are you frickin' nuts ??
​

Did you pay this off in one lump sum and have no bargaining chips ?? I don't doubt you have some problems and issues, but your main one is that you've paid off a boat anchor and now you want to complain after not taking any legal action.


Again, I can stop in and read this garbage, but because whether it's your money or someone else's..... this is not the place to do this. If you feel it still is.... well, who the heck am I to stop you. I was only inviting you to act professionally and stop...... both of you.

Graph, let me ask you this...... what would it take to make you happy ?? A new machine ?? Someone to come out and completely fix this one ?? Perhaps just give you all the money back ??

If you could explain all the problems to rand in a letter such as Wayne has requested.... could you do it without the emotional baggage ?? Seriously, dealing with someone that refuses to communicate is most frustration. Sure, you'll say that was them, but why don't you be the big guy here and use proper channels ?? Afterall, you stand to either lose everything or gain something back and it always works better with sugar water than vinegar.

​

 

[P Wagner]

It seems likely that you are comparing more than 'just' Mutoh versus Roland, but different RIPs, ink configurations, field service providers, and much more in the way of variables.

Unless things have changed, Mutoh relies on their dealer to provide field service, with GEI available as well. Roland relies exclusively on their dealer network for field service.

Randy is absolutely correct in his attempts to describe an ICC-based color work-flow, and it is apparent that Brandon has a lot to learn in the area of color management implementation. Comparing the Versaworks to the RIP in FlexiSIGN-Pro is a night and day difference for most users when comparing their out-of-the-box user experience.

Color issues (gamut, accuracy, repeatability) are a very different animal from machine performance. Field service engineers should be able to get a machine to perform within defined specifications, but that is a separate issue from color reproduction. If the machine has performance issues (nozzle-induced banding as an example), that is something that a field service engineer should be able to resolve. If the issue is color gamut, or poor color reproduction, a typical field service engineer really should not be expected to resolve those issues. A desire to understand color management, or at least understand it's architecture, is the only prerequisite needed. There is a wealth of information on this topic, much of it available on this very site.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Graphicholik3 ... this is my thread as a member. It asked for interested members to post reviews in the Reviews section. It was not intended for you to take it over and post a review followed by a rant and then an argument with other members.

If you want to rant about Mutoh, start your own thread and get off of mine.!

 

[Graphicholik3]

You and rand are turning this into a car wreck and everyone loves to 'Rubberneck'. You two have just gone off the deep end. You've both managed to take a professional conversation and turn it into something ugly.

I feel for your lose of $25,000, but here is not the place to do it. In fact, your posts are so long, I don't know how long you've had this/these problems, but I think the time has passed for any remedies. If they couldn't fix it before and you still don't know how to use it or can't make it work..... why haven't you sold it or contacted an attorney to take action ??

Me ?? Give you $25,000 ?? Are you frickin' nuts ??
​

Did you pay this off in one lump sum and have no bargaining chips ?? I don't doubt you have some problems and issues, but your main one is that you've paid off a boat anchor and now you want to complain after not taking any legal action.


Again, I can stop in and read this garbage, but because whether it's your money or someone else's..... this is not the place to do this. If you feel it still is.... well, who the heck am I to stop you. I was only inviting you to act professionally and stop...... both of you.

Graph, let me ask you this...... what would it take to make you happy ?? A new machine ?? Someone to come out and completely fix this one ?? Perhaps just give you all the money back ??

If you could explain all the problems to rand in a letter such as Wayne has requested.... could you do it without the emotional baggage ?? Seriously, dealing with someone that refuses to communicate is most frustration. Sure, you'll say that was them, but why don't you be the big guy here and use proper channels ?? Afterall, you stand to either lose everything or gain something back and it always works better with sugar water than vinegar.

​

Again another one of you talking when the shoes aren't on you.

 

[GAC05]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some here.
I don't know if this is the right thread or not (Fred check your post #10), but I do think this should be out in the open on this forum.
From what has been posted I can see the frustration on the customer's end.
I can also see the professional response from Randy.
Both have value in a place set up to go over issues all of us run into sooner or later.
Maybe the tone could be adjusted a little but I am not even sure that needs to be done.
People come here to find things out, how they are presented is just part of the deal.

wayne k
guam usa