I appreciate all your information that you have given me and I do respect what you are saying very much so. I dont know how i could hire four sales people and them only produce less than one car a month each but it is possible but they only have a week to produce one.lol. I will have to rethink my business now and do a little more delving into certain things and maybe talk a little more to people who know. For sales response it was easy I went to the phones one day to see the response i got and have commitments for two wraps. i stopped there and figured it was like any other product to sell. I should maybe do it for a month but I am concerned that I sale more that I might be in danger of not being able to install the wraps i would have sold. So I appreciate it and will probably look at the idea of farming out the printing as obviously Fellers has given me the wrong idea of what it costs in materials to wrap a suv. They told me a 60 inch roll could do 2.5 Suv's and the same for the laminate. So maybe since sales is my strength i will just farm out the other stuff. Its a thought and Colorado I appreciate your advice. Thank you.
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Need advice from one of you experts please.
- Thread starter JWM
- Start date
I appreciate all your information that you have given me and I do respect what you are saying very much so. I dont know how i could hire four sales people and them only produce less than one car a month each but it is possible but they only have a week to produce one.lol. I will have to rethink my business now and do a little more delving into certain things and maybe talk a little more to people who know. For sales response it was easy I went to the phones one day to see the response i got and have commitments for two wraps. i stopped there and figured it was like any other product to sell. I should maybe do it for a month but I am concerned that I sale more that I might be in danger of not being able to install the wraps i would have sold. So I appreciate it and will probably look at the idea of farming out the printing as obviously Fellers has given me the wrong idea of what it costs in materials to wrap a suv. They told me a 60 inch roll could do 2.5 Suv's and the same for the laminate. So maybe since sales is my strength i will just farm out the other stuff. Its a thought and Colorado I appreciate your advice. Thank you.
Locals Find!
New Member
Everything I buy is priced out by the foot. What I was trying to explain to you. The guys that do this work wholesale have way more buying power then me or you or 25 other guys combined. You can't compete at their pricing levels in house. They buy materials by the truckload and you will be buying a few rolls at a time. Its just a whole other ball game. Plus your not factoring in f'ing up. Which ask anyone will happen. Hell, half the threads on here are about f'ups that happened and people are trying to fix em.
When you sub it if something goes wrong with the print the other guy has to eat it. Much better when your starting out to let someone way more experienced do the work while you learn.
I wish you luck...hope you can break the mold. When your ready to give up give me a call, I got a sales job waiting for you.
HulkSmash
New Member
60 inch roll to do wraps? I would never wrap with anything more or less then 54". You're going to have 1 wrapper handle a 60" panel. Cool let me know how it goes.
If you're calling fellers customer support to get information on how much material it will take to wrap a car, you're already researching in the wrong area...
signage
New Member
If you made phone calls and sold two wraps, at what prices are these wraps and what type of vehicles?
What I do not understand is how you would know what it would cost you in time for the design, printing, laminating, prep and wrapping if you have not dane any yet. All the sales reps I know will tell you want you want to hear so they can make a sale, then you are stuck with their equipment not knowing how to run it, maintain it and it then is worth next to nothing because it doesn't operate correctly!
Good luck!
What I do not understand is how you would know what it would cost you in time for the design, printing, laminating, prep and wrapping if you have not dane any yet. All the sales reps I know will tell you want you want to hear so they can make a sale, then you are stuck with their equipment not knowing how to run it, maintain it and it then is worth next to nothing because it doesn't operate correctly!
Good luck!
Techman
New Member
I like a good fiction novel..
No it isn't.
Whoever sold you that lie should be flogged. If a pro cannot do it then how can a noob perform this miracle. You will have waste and you will have errors and you will have omissions. That line about doing it yourself for about half is pure bullscat.. Its the same lie given when someone says they can build a house for half. It cannot be done.
Sales and marketing? That says nothing about your ability to run a printer and design the graphics. I do marketing and sales myself. But it takes me twice as long to produce a reasonable layout as a true master. I can promise you that you can get the work but you will not be able top produce high quality layouts for a very long time. by that time you will have earned a reputation as a also ran in design.
Better yet, Why not ask Flame? He went through this entire evolution as a noob to a seasoned producer of work. Ask him how long it took.
Your research? AAHAHAHAHAH if its as accurate as your "half the cost" research then have a good day. It will take a day to layout and print your stuff. That is if you can panel it correctly the first try. But you will not be able to do that. You will be doing reprints. Give yourself another day to get the vehicle prepped and ready to lay materials. Sorry but you really want to reconsider your research.
Let me see here.
I will wager you are saying lines such as.
"Hey it shouldn't cost 5 grand to wrap a vehicle. I can do it for half that and still make a huge profit. I'll undercut every one by half to get the work and make it up in volume. I'll take all the other guy's customers in a month and put him out of business".
No it isn't.
Whoever sold you that lie should be flogged. If a pro cannot do it then how can a noob perform this miracle. You will have waste and you will have errors and you will have omissions. That line about doing it yourself for about half is pure bullscat.. Its the same lie given when someone says they can build a house for half. It cannot be done.
Sales and marketing? That says nothing about your ability to run a printer and design the graphics. I do marketing and sales myself. But it takes me twice as long to produce a reasonable layout as a true master. I can promise you that you can get the work but you will not be able top produce high quality layouts for a very long time. by that time you will have earned a reputation as a also ran in design.
Better yet, Why not ask Flame? He went through this entire evolution as a noob to a seasoned producer of work. Ask him how long it took.
Your research? AAHAHAHAHAH if its as accurate as your "half the cost" research then have a good day. It will take a day to layout and print your stuff. That is if you can panel it correctly the first try. But you will not be able to do that. You will be doing reprints. Give yourself another day to get the vehicle prepped and ready to lay materials. Sorry but you really want to reconsider your research.
Let me see here.
I will wager you are saying lines such as.
"Hey it shouldn't cost 5 grand to wrap a vehicle. I can do it for half that and still make a huge profit. I'll undercut every one by half to get the work and make it up in volume. I'll take all the other guy's customers in a month and put him out of business".
Driving Force
New Member
Seriously, if you were going to do 20 wraps a month then it would be pretty easy to afford a new printer. better get a really fast one cause printing takes some time. We consider ourselves pretty efficient at wrapping and I can tell you that its gonna take more than 1 day to do a wrap correctly. Some cars are pretty easy and some are a genuine B*tch. We usually schedule for 3 days just to make sure we have enough time to take everything apart, clean, print & laminate, clean again, install and reassemble the car. I'm not saying that it cant be done, but its pretty unrealistic to think 1 guy can do a full wrap by themselves in 1 day.
You really should find a shop that will let you watch a wrap be installed start to finish.
You also need to take into account the other materials needed to produce the wrap. There is more than just vinyl that has to be paid for. You need to consider the ink costs, electricty, waste, cost of the machine etc...
It really bugs me when some one says that they can print a wrap for $2-3 sqft. Sure for the vinyl, but add the cost of ink, maintenance & upkeep of the machine, labor costs, and overhead and the wrap gets pretty expensive.
I wish I could just get a $6000 printer and hire a guy and start doing 20-30 wraps a month. I must be doing it all wrong, I bought a $30k printer, $8k laminator, and a $10k cutter, and I'm thinking that wouldnt keep up with that many wraps, at least not without quite a few people working a lot of hours. Oh yea, I hope you have a lot of luck and find machines that never have any kind of problems or failures.
You really should find a shop that will let you watch a wrap be installed start to finish.
You also need to take into account the other materials needed to produce the wrap. There is more than just vinyl that has to be paid for. You need to consider the ink costs, electricty, waste, cost of the machine etc...
It really bugs me when some one says that they can print a wrap for $2-3 sqft. Sure for the vinyl, but add the cost of ink, maintenance & upkeep of the machine, labor costs, and overhead and the wrap gets pretty expensive.
I wish I could just get a $6000 printer and hire a guy and start doing 20-30 wraps a month. I must be doing it all wrong, I bought a $30k printer, $8k laminator, and a $10k cutter, and I'm thinking that wouldnt keep up with that many wraps, at least not without quite a few people working a lot of hours. Oh yea, I hope you have a lot of luck and find machines that never have any kind of problems or failures.
HulkSmash
New Member
Seriously, if you were going to do 20 wraps a month then it would be pretty easy to afford a new printer. better get a really fast one cause printing takes some time. We consider ourselves pretty efficient at wrapping and I can tell you that its gonna take more than 1 day to do a wrap correctly. Some cars are pretty easy and some are a genuine B*tch. We usually schedule for 3 days just to make sure we have enough time to take everything apart, clean, print & laminate, clean again, install and reassemble the car. I'm not saying that it cant be done, but its pretty unrealistic to think 1 guy can do a full wrap by themselves in 1 day.
You really should find a shop that will let you watch a wrap be installed start to finish.
You also need to take into account the other materials needed to produce the wrap. There is more than just vinyl that has to be paid for. You need to consider the ink costs, electricty, waste, cost of the machine etc...
It really bugs me when some one says that they can print a wrap for $2-3 sqft. Sure for the vinyl, but add the cost of ink, maintenance & upkeep of the machine, labor costs, and overhead and the wrap gets pretty expensive.
I wish I could just get a $6000 printer and hire a guy and start doing 20-30 wraps a month. I must be doing it all wrong, I bought a $30k printer, $8k laminator, and a $10k cutter, and I'm thinking that wouldnt keep up with that many wraps, at least not without quite a few people working a lot of hours. Oh yea, I hope you have a lot of luck and find machines that never have any kind of problems or failures.
3 days for a wrap is a little excessive. We do wraps in 1 day all the time. But that's just the install, and on a van/sprinter. Something with bumpers occasionally goes into the next day. Typically if there's just 1 person doing an install they just get in the way. If it is 2 people... it's 1 installing the other coming along behind them to do the trimming.
Speedsterbeast
New Member
I bought a Used Versacamm SP-300V for $5,000
Haven't had issues with it after 5 months. Even if I have to spend 2-3 grand on it over the next year or two, I'm still way ahead of the game. Glad I bought used, but it's always a gamble. Make sure you can see it in action before you buy, otherwise you are a fool. I am not interested in doing full wraps, so I can get away with a narrower machine so far. You may not be able to though.
And as for the negativity to your interest in this (not MY) industry.....
Hatred - the anger of the weak.
Alphonse Daudet
writer
(1840-1897)
Haven't had issues with it after 5 months. Even if I have to spend 2-3 grand on it over the next year or two, I'm still way ahead of the game. Glad I bought used, but it's always a gamble. Make sure you can see it in action before you buy, otherwise you are a fool. I am not interested in doing full wraps, so I can get away with a narrower machine so far. You may not be able to though.
And as for the negativity to your interest in this (not MY) industry.....
Hatred - the anger of the weak.
Alphonse Daudet
writer
(1840-1897)
Circleville Signs
New Member
I have yet to see any hatred. There has been annoyance. Even some hostility. I mean, when these guys come in acting like this is the easiest business in the world, it's insulting to those of us who have paid our dues and actually learned to be professionals. If this guy had $500,000 to get this thing rolling, could hire an experienced crew and a manager who could run the thing, then he MIGHT have a chance in a saturated, competitive market. As it stands now? Nope. No chance.
Speedsterbeast
New Member
hater
A label applied to people who are more negative than positive when discussing another person. It most commonly refers to individuals whose negativity is so extreme that it is all-consuming. However, there are various levels and forms of being a hater, ranging from completely dismissing any positive traits or actions, to merely painting a less than flattering picture by using words with negative connotations. Hating is often attributed to jealousy, but just as often, it seems to stem from some other source.
A label applied to people who are more negative than positive when discussing another person. It most commonly refers to individuals whose negativity is so extreme that it is all-consuming. However, there are various levels and forms of being a hater, ranging from completely dismissing any positive traits or actions, to merely painting a less than flattering picture by using words with negative connotations. Hating is often attributed to jealousy, but just as often, it seems to stem from some other source.
Speedster your right brother, hatred is for the weak, good post my friend. They get hostile because they see a guy coming in with an idea that they dont feel comfortable with. That is like a guy who has built world class sales teams being offended with someone telling him he will be lucky to do 3-4 wraps a month. My experience is that most people who have sign businesses are great at the sign part but are so far out classed by the sales end of the business that it is comical. For them to pound a phone morning to night is not going to happen. Matter of fact in the whole population of the USA only 1 percent at best will become great salesman. So I dont get offended I have been being told my whole life what is not possible and taking a 250k business to 10million in a year and a half is something i have done. Unfortunately it wasnt my biz i did that for and through economy, divorce, OUch OUch on the last one. My once great empire has been cutup.LMAO More from the big D. But you got a great attitude and I love these guys responses because it first has been very helpful the advice i have received for the most part. Heck I am going to seriously evaluate the farming out of my work since I plan on getting lots of sales it will help streamline my efforts. Plus since it sounds like most companies are doing 3-4 wraps a month maybe if i can do more I can even get a better price. After all volume always gets a discount. As for the rest I love the hate it drives me to put in 14 hour days and six day weeks. Three to four wraps a month....in a pigs arse. Good luck to you and everybody else.
Treat your neighbors the way you would like to be treated.
Treat your neighbors the way you would like to be treated.
Circleville Signs
New Member
OP,
Again, please understand, I at least am not trying to spew negativity. I'm trying to give you a dose of reality. You said you've already sold 2 wraps? What prices did you quote? Did you get just blanket approval from those clients that they were gonna let you wrap their vehicles, no matter what the cost?
You're in Chicago, right? I'm guessing, off the top of my head, that there are at least 100 companies within a 40 mile radius of you offering the same products that you are. Now, as a sales guy, you know that the best way to make a sale is to put yourself in the client's shoes. Why would that client go with you? You have no experience, and the other guys do.
On top of that, I'm guessing that you have at least one, if not more, of the "big boys" in your back yard. By "big boys", I'm referring to shops to specialize totally in wraps, and who actually DO 30-50/month, and even send 3 man crews out to do fleets on site for 2 weeks at a time. Those shops can do your client's wrap for 50-60% of what you can.
Here's what I'm trying to say. If you REALLY want to get into this business, I applaud you. It is one of the most rewarding and satisfying things that you can do with your life. But you are doing it the wrong way. If you are as good of a salesman as you claim to be, go sell for one of the "big boys". You will learn a RIDICULOUS amount about this business. Spend a day each week with the installers, pick their brains about how design and installation need to collaborate in order to get the best results. Spend some time actually pressing vinyl.
Here's a crazy thought - go to 3M's (or the equivilent) wrap school. LEARN this business before you try to take it over.
This is from a guy who got into the sign business on the sales side of things. Never knew ANYTHING about signs. Was hired by a mid-level company to build and run their sales team. Did that, quadrupled sales in a year. Company hit a rough patch due to ownership issues. I had to jump into all phases off the business. Design, fabrication, wrapping, finishing, you name it.
Best education I ever got. You can't just jump into this and think it's gonna be a money maker. You are making a wise decision to farm out your printing. Put the money you have set aside in the bank. Add to it from your profits. When you hit the point where you outsourcing is costing you $6-8k/month, go buy a print/lam/cut set-up. Not any sooner.
Contrary to popular belief, most here would love to see you succeed. But rarely does someone succeed when they already know it all.
Again, please understand, I at least am not trying to spew negativity. I'm trying to give you a dose of reality. You said you've already sold 2 wraps? What prices did you quote? Did you get just blanket approval from those clients that they were gonna let you wrap their vehicles, no matter what the cost?
You're in Chicago, right? I'm guessing, off the top of my head, that there are at least 100 companies within a 40 mile radius of you offering the same products that you are. Now, as a sales guy, you know that the best way to make a sale is to put yourself in the client's shoes. Why would that client go with you? You have no experience, and the other guys do.
On top of that, I'm guessing that you have at least one, if not more, of the "big boys" in your back yard. By "big boys", I'm referring to shops to specialize totally in wraps, and who actually DO 30-50/month, and even send 3 man crews out to do fleets on site for 2 weeks at a time. Those shops can do your client's wrap for 50-60% of what you can.
Here's what I'm trying to say. If you REALLY want to get into this business, I applaud you. It is one of the most rewarding and satisfying things that you can do with your life. But you are doing it the wrong way. If you are as good of a salesman as you claim to be, go sell for one of the "big boys". You will learn a RIDICULOUS amount about this business. Spend a day each week with the installers, pick their brains about how design and installation need to collaborate in order to get the best results. Spend some time actually pressing vinyl.
Here's a crazy thought - go to 3M's (or the equivilent) wrap school. LEARN this business before you try to take it over.
This is from a guy who got into the sign business on the sales side of things. Never knew ANYTHING about signs. Was hired by a mid-level company to build and run their sales team. Did that, quadrupled sales in a year. Company hit a rough patch due to ownership issues. I had to jump into all phases off the business. Design, fabrication, wrapping, finishing, you name it.
Best education I ever got. You can't just jump into this and think it's gonna be a money maker. You are making a wise decision to farm out your printing. Put the money you have set aside in the bank. Add to it from your profits. When you hit the point where you outsourcing is costing you $6-8k/month, go buy a print/lam/cut set-up. Not any sooner.
Contrary to popular belief, most here would love to see you succeed. But rarely does someone succeed when they already know it all.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Now you're talking.
Honestly and up front. None of this tomfoolery crap you want to hear.If you come here to hear yourself talk and then answer yourself, why waste bandwidth with unrealistic goals ?? There are people here already doing this for a living and a pretty good one at that. I've never seen their shops personally, but based on the pictures they've uploaded here..... you're not gonna get anywhere close to them with your plan or scheme. It's just not possible to do with your lack of knowledge of the entire industry. Can you learn it ?? Sure. Will you ?? Probably a bit here and there, but not enough to do what you are proposing.
It takes much more than just selling a wrap. Fellers also probably didn't mislead you and your wrap buddy is probably telling you what you want to hear, because based on your comprehension skills in this one thread, you're not learning a thing, but already trying to figure out how you can beat the system.
Someone trying to re-invent the wheel is fine by anyone's standards, but you should try to do it without hurting your fellow tradesman or your customers. You have some trick to doing 20 or 30 vehicles in a month.... good for you. We'll even try to help you, but when you make fun and put down about 99% of what others have told you .... you go from being a player to being an unwanted intruder or what some call a troll. Your crap can't be taken seriously anymore because you are using unrealistic measures.... almost to the point of undermining everything we have all worked long and hard at perfecting.
I've heard of people coming up with new techniques and tools to make things easier, but just lowballing everyone is old school and generally won't be anything but a flash in the pan and you'll be looking for another job within 6 months... after you've burned all of your customers.
So, it's your call cowboy. 
AnotherSignManiac
New Member
huh interesting...
A few words of advice for someone who just completed a first year in the sign industry...
Yes people will say "yes i would LOVE to wrap my car" but until you have money *deposit* from them, they are doing nothing but making you waste money.
Alot of solid advice about subbing out your work, and then wrapping, there is a whole lot more into the wrap industry then putting shapes and words into a magical design software and printing a wrap. Also it takes alot of experiance TO wrap (which from the looks of it, you have someone for that... good thing)
I really hope that you make it, but honestly chances aren't that good, there are many people competing in your area that I'm sure you have no idea about, and they are established. Just becareful oh and feller's sucks at advice.
A few words of advice for someone who just completed a first year in the sign industry...
Yes people will say "yes i would LOVE to wrap my car" but until you have money *deposit* from them, they are doing nothing but making you waste money.
Alot of solid advice about subbing out your work, and then wrapping, there is a whole lot more into the wrap industry then putting shapes and words into a magical design software and printing a wrap. Also it takes alot of experiance TO wrap (which from the looks of it, you have someone for that... good thing)
I really hope that you make it, but honestly chances aren't that good, there are many people competing in your area that I'm sure you have no idea about, and they are established. Just becareful oh and feller's sucks at advice.
HulkSmash
New Member
Hatred? Hostile? Who the hell is hostile? People like you need to be removed from society. I gave you the most professional, honest advice i can give you - and you're saying we're afraid of your idea? Show me one post from anyone in this threat supporting your theory. I'm more excited, actually.. companies like yours is what makes mine SO successful. You built a business from 200k - 10 million in a year? I guess that explains your $6,000 budget.
What you want to do, i already do which is why I can tell you what to expect. You need a CREW of people, space, more equipment, and the RIGHT equipment.
actually, not wasting my time on helping you anymore.
good luck on your 30 wraps a month.
CentralSigns
New Member
Dude you may be the one. That against all odds proves he can do it. You will either make it, or lose your house. That's drive for you. Prove us wrong come back in a year and tell your story. Based on all the comments from the vets here you'll fail. Better have several contingency plans if things go sour. This forum is the best place to start gathering info. Buy a membership and get unlimited access to the secret archives of success. You'll need to.
MikePro
New Member
i think the proper answer to the op, is that for $6k... you're not really getting much at all. you MIGHT be able to pickup a decent printer via ebay for under $8k, but your first set of ink costs you $1k and techs charge over $100/hr just to come look at it, plus travel, whatever more labor/parts it will take to get someone else's junk up n' running properly. Oyeah, and lamination? gonna need at least another $1-2k and a whole lotta luck finding a decent one at that price.
plus that $4k used printer you saw on ebay will take nearly another $1k just to get it inside your shop... shipping ain't cheap and you stand a good chance of ruining a halfway decent printer in the process of transportation.
lease a new one and you'll never regret it! on the other hand, outsourcing may seem "wasteful" with your money but, in reality, you have zero-risk involved and can casually build up your client-base until you're finally ready to do it like the rest of us. pad your pricing, don't worry about what the other guy is charging, and let your designs/wrap skills upsell your work for you.... making money doesn't necessarily mean having to produce it the cheapest possible right off the bat.
edited: noticed from your posts that your $6k budget is just for printer and $1-2k set aside for laminator? Screw that, pool your budget and get in on a latex printer for around $10k. I think there's a new HP latex coming out in the near future, so you might be able to catch a deal on an older mode. With latex printing, you can get away without lamination no problem, or just use clearshield liquid laminate and a paint roller.
plus that $4k used printer you saw on ebay will take nearly another $1k just to get it inside your shop... shipping ain't cheap and you stand a good chance of ruining a halfway decent printer in the process of transportation.
lease a new one and you'll never regret it! on the other hand, outsourcing may seem "wasteful" with your money but, in reality, you have zero-risk involved and can casually build up your client-base until you're finally ready to do it like the rest of us. pad your pricing, don't worry about what the other guy is charging, and let your designs/wrap skills upsell your work for you.... making money doesn't necessarily mean having to produce it the cheapest possible right off the bat.
edited: noticed from your posts that your $6k budget is just for printer and $1-2k set aside for laminator? Screw that, pool your budget and get in on a latex printer for around $10k. I think there's a new HP latex coming out in the near future, so you might be able to catch a deal on an older mode. With latex printing, you can get away without lamination no problem, or just use clearshield liquid laminate and a paint roller.
My advice is to concentrate on your strengths....
Find a good wrap shop and become their director of sales.
Sign people don't make good salesmen but by equal measure salesmen don't make good sign makers.
A good salesman is a fearless predator with a ruthless eye for the "kill". Sign makers are always more worried about practical considerations relating to production. For example; if you've had your @rse handed to you on a plate for over running on one project you start to be over cautious; quoting longer than you really need just to be safe. If you can operate free of the worry of the practicalities of how to make and install stuff you'll be more effective... and dare I say it a lot happier. If selling is your niche then you'll earn more and be happier doing what you do best.
For an experienced shop with hungry, expensive machines and installation crews to keep busy you are probably worth your own weight in Gold.... a keen, mean selling machine that drags in financial "food" for the business.
thewvsignguy
New Member
Buy new, a warranty & tech support are priceless in a busy shop.
Buy at least a 54" machine, 30" will not wrap vehicles and material for any printer in-between 30" and 54" is a little harder to come by.
You will need a good RIP software, you can not print directly out of photoshop.
Buy a well recommended laminator that is larger then the printer, remember you get what you pay for.
We subbed out our print jobs for over two years before we felt the need to buy our own equipment. We were faced with a 13k cash budget and you would think that's allot of money but in the sign industry, that ain't nothin'. I really can't see 6k going very far with what you have in mind, but wish you all the luck in the world in today's market.
Buy at least a 54" machine, 30" will not wrap vehicles and material for any printer in-between 30" and 54" is a little harder to come by.
You will need a good RIP software, you can not print directly out of photoshop.
Buy a well recommended laminator that is larger then the printer, remember you get what you pay for.
We subbed out our print jobs for over two years before we felt the need to buy our own equipment. We were faced with a 13k cash budget and you would think that's allot of money but in the sign industry, that ain't nothin'. I really can't see 6k going very far with what you have in mind, but wish you all the luck in the world in today's market.