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Need Some Advice

Brands Imaging

New Member
So I have checked through a lot of threads and searched high and low.
I have found many of my answers but I need them all combined plus user feedback/opinions.

So I have a whole 32bit PC XP Shop. We are running out of space on our first machine bought 3 years ago. Its a sled these days and we are in desperate need of an upgrade.

I have always been almost anti Mac because of all the hype. All of the college students buying them for looks and mom and dads getting them cause they are the cool thing these days. I also know that this "sign" form, where a lot of people are mostly clip art users. Most of the people here do the majority of design in flexi and corel and dont even have the whole adobe suite...hence making them PC users.

I also know that its no secret that designers, film people and photographers have been using Macs FOREVER. So there is def something to be said about really using a Mac for what its intended for. My shop specialsized in vehicles and gigantic wall murals and our files are huge. I have been thinking about jumping to the new 2011 iMac with the i7 processors and 8 or 16gigs or RAM.

My questions are, first what do you think? This is not just another bs Mac or PC poll. I am more concerned about how it will integrate with my RIP PC. Which is my 32bit XP Machine. Will the designs of the 64bit monster be "dumbed" down by my 32bit XP RIP PC with the 32bit Flexi?

Should I just bite thr bullet and switch the whole shop to mac? Switch the whole shop to 64bit PC's all running XP? I have to make a move quickly cause my designers patience is wearing thin with this machine crashing and taking FOREVER to save and rasterize!!

Please help and thanks!!
 

Locals Find!

New Member
My opinion is stick with pc. My reasoning is that you can locate replacement parts for a pc just about everywhere. Their is something to be said about being able to hit a 24 hour walmart and picking up parts when you really need them. Just my 2 cents which my opinion is probably not worth.
 

noregrets

New Member
It is almost one of those situations where you are dammed if you do, and dammed if you dont.

We have a mixed environment here, and about 18 months ago I bit the bullet and bought myself an iMac.

From my experience, all in all it has been relatively painless, there were certainly teething problems, and an investment in software, as we had the adobe suite on the PC, so had to also invest in Mac licenses.

There are certainly areas on the mac that outperform the PC. The Adobe range runs pretty well with 8gigs ram, although 16 would be awesome.

The issues I have had are, firstly I cannot print on my Roland from the mac, so I end up preparing the file on the Mac and then printing on the PC.....no biggie, but I do have to maintain two seperate machines.

Parts for Apple are ridiculously expensive, and as said above - when something goes wrong it can be harder,dearer to repair.

And hey, lets face it - a big 27" Mac screen does look good on your desk, and makes you look the part to your clients.....

What we also ended up doing was purchasing a NAS to store our data on. This keeps our data independant of a particular machine. I dont think I will ever be able to go all Apple, but the multi platform environment works OK, and when needed I will upgrade my apple again.

Hope that helps....
 

jiarby

New Member
I would switch everyone to SandyBridge based i7-2600K LGA-1155 PC's with x64 Windows 7.
You could use a killer SSD for your system drive and a 3TB SATA data drive (I bought two this weekend for $100 each!) with the money you save compared to an i7 Mac.
 

Custom_Grafx

New Member
Sorry, I shouldn't be so short...

I'm a pc user, and don't have experience with macs, apart from my iphone.

My opinion with these things, is that either way you go, both directions are capable of delivering what you want. It's not about being anti one or the other.

Like buying groceries, buying from one supermarket can sometimes feel better than buying at another.

When products do the same thing (convert electrical signals into 1's and 0's, then display them on your screen - let's face it, this is what ALL computers do) there are other factors CEO's need to focus on in order to dominate the market. Perception, appearance, status, value etc etc. It's all about making yourself unique and identifiable. Without that, market domination is impossible. Making things proprietary like apple does for example, is one strategy to secure that. It might piss people off, but without doing things the way it does, apple would just be another computer manufacturer like asus or hp or toshiba. Obviously Jobs wanted more, and he has it.

For this reason, I also think you need to consider all the factors which matter to you, as essentially, no matter which path you take, dependent on the grade of components you choose, you can achieve the same results with a mac or a pc I believe.

Regarding the RIP computer dumbing down something made in 64bit... it won't do that, it will just be slow. I think you should consider a 64 bit OS for the rip machine, and fill it up with RAM. It should help it rip faster. Is there a reason why you sound like you're stuck with your rip pc/xp 32bit?

Make sure you have a m/b which can handle the speed of high grade ram (at least 1600) and pack it up, all the way.

It's been about 3 years since I built my last computer, and things have changed a lot. Also, I have come to appreciate the extra $ for components of a higher grade.

If you do go PC, make sure everything in there is high grade. Power supply, ram, hdd, cpu, m/b, graphics card etc.
 

Brands Imaging

New Member
My opinion is stick with pc. My reasoning is that you can locate replacement parts for a pc just about everywhere. Their is something to be said about being able to hit a 24 hour walmart and picking up parts when you really need them. Just my 2 cents which my opinion is probably not worth.

i appreciate your opinion...and I'll get an in store warranty for the machine..if the PC goes down I'd probably have to do the same thing too..the only thing I'm buying from wallmart and "popping" in would be RAM

noregrets...

That does help and I appreciate it...ya know...you said
There are certainly areas on the mac that outperform the PC. The Adobe range runs pretty well with 8gigs ram, although 16 would be awesome.

The issues I have had are, firstly I cannot print on my Roland from the mac, so I end up preparing the file on the Mac and then printing on the PC.....no biggie, but I do have to maintain two seperate machines.

you didnt really say any negatives about the mac ...lol...but I really appreciate ur input and it makes it a bit easier.

Better the devil you know.

I do know it....and the more I use them they seem inferior to Mac...these machines were born for design
 

Custom_Grafx

New Member
LOL, it sounds like you know what you want already. As mentioned, you should be able to do whatever you want with either one.

I just had an idea - and Admin have beaten us to it as usual!

http://www.signs101.com/reviewpost/index.php

There's a computer review section on this site!! that's pretty cool.

I've been trying to find info on design pc's the last few days coz I'll be building mine pretty soon, and it's not that easy to find people specifically using what we use, benchmarking systems (design software and rip etc).

When I build my new pc, I'll try to put something up there... I'm kinda surprised that there are no reviews there at all.
 

SignBurst PCs

New Member
Untimately, this will turn into a PC vs Mac thread. It is just how it works. I hate having these discussions because there really isn't a "right" answer and there are very strong opinions on both sides. It is like asking which is better, a Mustang or a Camaro. Of course everyone has an opinion, but is there really a "right" one for everyone?

I don't have anything bad to say about Macs, but a PC can be every bit as fast and reliable as a Mac.

As far as being better for design, there really isn't a case there. The hardware platforms are the same and I can assure you that Apple doesn't always use the highest quality hardware. But to be fair, not all PCs are built with the highest quality out there either. For those that believe that there is something about a Mac that makes it a superior design computer, I would love to hear what it is. As a matter of fact, not too long ago, I was talking to one of the guys over at Adobe who is in the "performace department" and he was telling me all about the awesome PC that he was using :). That really should tell you something. :thumb:
 
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choucove

New Member
I hate to jump back into the Mac vs. PC debate again, but this is something that I have been speaking about and dealing with literally every day for numerous years now, both in a daily user perspective and as an owner of a computer repair/services business.

First off, I'll start with just the 32-bit vs. 64-bit area. With a 64-bit system you are able to move past the 4 GB of RAM limitation that exists with a 32-bit operating system. In a design system, this is huge. If you're working with large files in Adobe or even in Flexi while multitasking with other applications open (email, internet, media, etc.) then the more RAM you have the better. Anymore, when we're building design systems, I'm going to always suggest 16 GB of RAM and here's why: RAM is cheap, and while most of your applications are never going to use that much RAM regularly, it will help in the end three years from now when you've upgraded your software twice and it's now able to actually utilize that amount of RAM. Plus, you can download free software to create a RAMDisk, which allocates part of your RAM to be used as an actual hard drive. Let Flexi and Adobe (and even Windows if you wish) use this RAMDisk as a temp scratch disk and you literally cannot get a faster system. RAM operates at several hundred times faster than even the fastest SSD on the market meaning instantaneous renders, filter applications, and lightning fast response moving or editing even large files in all your design software.

However, I would not suggest going with Windows XP 64-bit edition. First off, it's going to be hard to find. Second, Windows XP will losing "service" from Microsoft meaning they will not be releasing any security updates, patches, or fixes. It's an old operating system, and while it still runs alright, the 64-bit version can be buggy and if you're going new, go Windows 7. I've been incredibly pleased with Windows 7 as have pretty much everyone been that has upgraded to it.

Now, into the Mac vs. PC part *deep breath*. Now, most of what I am going to cover is pure FACT, and I know saying that right there is going to get me a lot of flack, but I deal with it daily and I've done years of research on it. However, let me be very clear about one thing. In the debate between the two, it ultimately comes down solely to preference. If you've learned and like the interface of a Mac, you're going to choose the Mac. Same can be said about the PC. But, it's important that you know and understand the true differences here before you make the decision to spend tens of thousands of dollars to re-outfit your entire shop to a new platform which will require not just new computer purchases, but all new software, possibly new peripherals (printers, scanners, etc.), and a LOT of time training.

First off, the actual parts that make up a PC and a Mac are 99.9999% identical. The ONLY thing that makes a Mac a Mac is that it has a specific BIOS programmed into it that allows it to boot and run OS X. If you go and configure a Mac Pro computer for design, you can design a Dell Precision which uses the exact same processor, exact same type of RAM, exact same hard drives, exact same graphics cards. Everything. The difference here is that the Mac will cost you up to several thousands of dollars more than an identical PC system (if you're planning to have a custom-built system or build your own, you can save MUCH more than even going with a Dell or HP etc.)

So what makes everyone have this belief that Macs are better? Why have photographers and designers been using them for years? Well, that requires a little history lesson.

Many years ago, during the mid 1990's, computer hardware was beginning to rapidly change and get more powerful at a rate never seen before. Macintosh at the time developed computers that focused on having a more "pretty" user interface and graphical power than many of the available PCs because, at the time, PC didn't really focus in that area. It was at this time that Apple computers began developing the reputation for having "superior graphics capabilities" and indeed, at that time, they did. But after a few years the PC computers available offered just as much graphics power as Macs did. It took a little time for such power to become very mainstream and for software to also accommodate the graphics power now capable within PC computers, but it is definitely true now that PC computers offer just the same graphics hardware and capabilities as found in a Mac. Again, the parts between a PC and a Mac are identical.

A second myth that people often rush for a Mac for is that they are "immune to viruses." It is these same people that I get to deal with in my business because they call me up when their Mac is acting weird. Behold, their invincible Mac has indeed been infected with a virus. Every operating system out there is capable of being infected with a virus, even the OS that runs your DVD player, the computer in your car, everything. The reason that this myth started is because of how OS X was created. In the early part of this decade, OS 9 was designed on its own core or kernel (basically the core of the operating system) much like Windows NT is its own kernel. Macintosh made a drastic change and ditched this original kernel and built their next operating system, OS X, based on the UNIX kernel which has been known for decades as a very powerful and secure OS, easily customizable, and up until that time really only used for large-scale server systems. In its early years, the UNIX based OS X kernel was quite new so relatively secure to existing virus threats. Also, Macintosh controlled a tiny fraction (then about 3 - 5 %) of the market share of operating systems in the world. Why should malware coders design viruses that would only affect a tiny sliver of market out there? Their more likely to succeed by coding for the other 95% of market share in use.

Several years have passed since the OS X kernel was originally formed and unfortunately Macintosh has not made major modifications and updates to the core kernel since it's design. In fact, a great number of leading security analyst experts agree that the new Windows 7 operating system is natively more secure than the OS X kernel, mostly due to the long time periods between patches and updates from Apple compared to the rigorous testing and numerous patch updates put out by Microsoft.

So, if you believe that you can get a Mac and not worry about viruses, I hope you're prepared for some bad news. Macs can get viruses, just the same as PCs. Here's the difference, though. There are less security utilities available for protecting Mac systems than there are for PCs of course. If you aren't running proper Mac compatible anti-virus software and your Mac does get a virus, there is no fix that any computer technician can do to help you. Apple's actual suggested action for a Mac virus is to bring it into an Apple store so they can completely wipe your hard drive and reinstall OS X (and yes, you will lose your data most likely.) However, with a PC if you do get a virus, and get an actual computer technician to repair it, you will not have to wipe your computer and you won't lose your data. They run their scan and fix utilities and you're back up and going. I can honestly tell you in three years of running my business, and removing viruses from literally more than a hundred computers, I have only ever had to reinstall the operating system on a computer 1 time after a virus infection and even then we were able to recover all the data before reinstalling Windows XP.

And that brings me to the next point, one which was made above by others, and that is serviceability. There are a great number of computer technicians out there that are proficient with making your PC work, network with everything in your office, and have drivers and software that are compatible. A Mac computer, on the other hand, will be much harder for any service technician to repair because everything is locked down by Apple as they want only their Apple Store technicians performing any sort of work on their computer. This means limited support of systems compared to PCs (by far!) Additionally, while the hardware within a Mac is identical to that found within a PC, they will charge you a tremendous premium for any sort of hardware replacements or upgrades compared to purchasing an component for a PC and adding it.

Just to give you an example, I recently saw some DDR3 1333 ECC Registered RAM from Apple for use in "upgrades for Nehalem-based Mac Pros". A single 2 GB stick of memory was a whopping $300! That same 2 GB stick of DDR3 1333 ECC Registered RAM from Newegg was less than $75! There are also a lot of components that are just proprietary enough by Apple (such as power supplies) that you must purchase that exact component through Apple for replacement. You can't just put any ATX compatible power supply in for replacement or upgrades, which would save a TON of money.

Now, to end this long rant of mine I just want to specifically state for you and everyone to read that I am not flat out telling you that you should never buy a Mac computer. Again, it all comes down to your own preferences and circumstances. But I do want you to be aware of the facts about the differences between the computers. In the end the simple truth is if you configure and purchase a Mac computer system, you will spend a LOT more just on hardware alone for that computer when compared to an identical PC (whether through a custom builder or a retailer such as HP or Dell.) Slowly, Apple has been getting their prices closer and closer to the similar PC price but it is still a long ways off. The thought that the Mac is far superior in performance or quality is false because the hardware found in both systems are identical. The only thing that is different is the operating system and again, it comes down to your preference to use.

The whole reason for this discussion is exactly as you said, to understand the options available out there. If you're really thinking about getting a Mac computer, it's almost universally suggested that you should switch nearly all your computers to Mac or there will be some compatibility issues undoubtedly between the Macs and the PCs on your network. Additionally, you're going to have to consider your software. Is all your software Mac compatible? If so, will you have to purchase new Mac licensing and specific versions of that software for use on the Mac computers? Will all your additional devices, such as printers, all work on your Mac as well?

If you'd like a detailed, specific pricing break down of upgrading all your PCs to new Windows 7 PCs compared to having to upgrade your whole office to Macs (and possibly replacing additional hardware, plus new software licensing) then I could do that, but needless to say I can guarantee it will cost you a LOT more to switch over to the Mac computers. There are a ton of options out there for going with PCs that are highly customizable and fit your business and your needs ideally. I'd highly recommend speaking with Casey from Signburst PCs as well on some of your specific usages as well as options with custom PCs specifically built and tailored for the design industry.
 

choucove

New Member
I've been trying to find info on design pc's the last few days coz I'll be building mine pretty soon, and it's not that easy to find people specifically using what we use, benchmarking systems (design software and rip etc).

While it's not exactly tailored specifically for the sign or design industry, Toms Hardware does a very good job I believe of testing their different components or computer systems on the Adobe software regularly. Just take a look in their CPU Charts Benchmarks section and you will see several categories there where they are comparing performance using Adobe Photoshop with several different processors.

This isn't exactly a overall system benchmark comparison (such as testing a Dell Precision) but shows specifically the difference in that single component (int his case, the CPU.)

http://www.tomshardware.com

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-cpu-charts-2010/benchmarks,112.html
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Additionally, you're going to have to consider your software. Is all your software Mac compatible? If so, will you have to purchase new Mac licensing and specific versions of that software for use on the Mac computers? Will all your additional devices, such as printers, all work on your Mac as well?

Why wouldn't you just use something that lets you use 7 on a virtual drive on your MAC if there are programs that are Windows only? On the one iMac that I have, I do have a virtual drive setup as my embroidery software only runs on Windows and it handles that just fine. Although that's all that I use it for that is directly related to this, otherwise it's just for internet, email and Netflix while I have the embroidery machine running.

Of course, for some that would defeat the purpose of going to a MAC as they would still have to deal with Windows in some small shape, form, or fashion.
 

Techman

New Member
That above post from choucove kust about sums it up to the perfect commentary.
This should be saved forever and re-posted whenever the MAC vs PC debates rears its head again.
 

signmeup

New Member
"First off, the actual parts that make up a PC and a Mac are 99.9999% identical. The ONLY thing that makes a Mac a Mac is that it has a specific BIOS programmed into it that allows it to boot and run OS X. If you go and configure a Mac Pro computer for design, you can design a Dell Precision which uses the exact same processor, exact same type of RAM, exact same hard drives, exact same graphics cards. Everything." Choucove.

That's what I figured. The difference is the OS.

The software we use (Illustrator, Corel etc.) is also identical. Does the software behave differently on on a MAC vs a PC? If so.... how? If not... what's all the fuss about?
 

choucove

New Member
Why wouldn't you just use something that lets you use 7 on a virtual drive on your MAC if there are programs that are Windows only? On the one iMac that I have, I do have a virtual drive setup as my embroidery software only runs on Windows and it handles that just fine. Although that's all that I use it for that is directly related to this, otherwise it's just for internet, email and Netflix while I have the embroidery machine running.

Of course, for some that would defeat the purpose of going to a MAC as they would still have to deal with Windows in some small shape, form, or fashion.


WildWest brings up another very important point and that is virtualization. Apple has gained a lot of favor because it has offered the option to run Windows within OS X with software such as Parallels for OS X. This was done solely because Apple could not gain market shares because none of the major software out there was really compatible with OS X, so they had to market virtualization so that you can run Windows and have all of your software.

First, I'll just briefly start with my personal opinion here. If you have to buy a Mac and then buy everything necessary to run Windows on it for double the cost of just a PC, then why even get a Mac in the first place? If you're just going to run Windows on it, then why did you buy the Mac? It's a waste of money in the end.

But on to the facts:

Virtualization can really be a handy tool if you know what you're doing. You can run multiple operating systems which can overcome some compatibility issues such as software and drivers. In an enterprise setting, I use virtualization for running a "virtual image" of a server (such as a domain controller) on top of the physical server operating system so that it is independent of the hardware. This means that if the physical server goes down, I can take the files that comprise that "virtual image" and move it to any other computer running the virtualization software (in most cases I've used Hyper V within Windows Server 2008 R2) and have the server up and going in almost no time, regardless of the hardware.

However, virtualization requires a decent amount of horsepower to actually do. Consider this: Let's say you have a quad-core processor iMac with 4 GB of memory. When your system starts up and loads OS X it has to dedicate and use some of those resources for the core functions of the operating system itself. It may also allocate some resources for commonly used applications (similar to Windows PreFetch and SuperFetch) and other programs that are currently running, even in the background (such as email services, internet browser, etc.) So lets say then that just running OS X your computer is using about 10% to 20% of your available system resources right there. Now, we start up Parallels as we want to begin using Windows 7 within our OS X machine. That alone will use up some system resources (we'll say 10% here just to be conservative) and then your virtual computer will load up. That virtual machine also has certain system resources that it will automatically set aside for usage. If you're running Windows 7 you can expect another 10% to 20% of your system resources will be used up just running the operating system, not including additional programs that you may be running within that Windows 7 virtual machine such as Flexi, Adobe, internet browser, email, virus scans, etc. etc. So, basically just by running Windows 7 within your OS X system (not including running any other programs within your Windows 7 virtual machine) your computer is already using between 30% and 50% of its available resources.

This leads to 2 problems really. The first is headroom. If up to 50% of your computer is already utilized just running the virtual machine of Windows 7, then you've only got half of the available processor, memory, and graphics memory available to actually run your high-computational software such as Adobe or Flexi. These are the software components that can stand to use every ounce of computational hardware you can throw at them, and here you have given them only half of what you had to begin with. If you were instead just running a PC with Windows 7 identically configured to the iMac, you'd only be using between 10% and 20% of your system resources for the operating system, leaving you between 80% and 90% of your system resources for use with that bigger software like Adobe, which can make a huge difference.

The second problem is stress. If your iMac is constantly running at least 50% load and adding the rest of your resources to run Flexi, that means that you have your components constantly at a very high usage level, or load, for an extended period of time. This can lead to a LOT of heat issues (the iMac is a very compact design using often very hot-running hardware in a form factor that is very hard to keep running cool.) High levels of heat in a system for long periods of time can lead to instability and even hardware failures. Now, I'm not gonna say that your iMac is going to overheat running Adobe or Flexi in Windows 7, it's most likely not, but I know that heat is becoming more and more of an issue for a lot of the high-performance Mac computers that are small form factor, mainly the newer Macbook Pros. In fact, the latest generation of these laptops, running on the new Sandy Bridge platform of processors, has been well noted for getting VERY hot under load. It was this reason that Apple seemed to have disabled the turbo clock feature in the Sandy Bridge processors in these laptops, which is one of the biggest performance features these processors provide.

Again, I know that a lot of this is my personal insight as well, and I'm sure I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for ever even engaging in this discussion, but I'm also trying to point out some of the pure simple facts that should be considered with any kind of technology purchase. A lot of these facts have been misconstrued in the continual Mac vs. PC debate, as I mentioned previously about Macs being immune to viruses, but it is something that I just hope I can clear up and truly present the differences for you to consider and make your own, hopefully now a little more informed, decision.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
First, I'll just briefly start with my personal opinion here. If you have to buy a Mac and then buy everything necessary to run Windows on it for double the cost of just a PC, then why even get a Mac in the first place? If you're just going to run Windows on it, then why did you buy the Mac? It's a waste of money in the end.

That would be my issue as well with it. Had the computer not been given to me, I wouldn't have messed with it at all. But I still came out a head of the game and I needed a computer out with my embroidery machine for updates etc for that machine. Plus any last minute tweaks I can do it on the iMac instead of having to take it all the way to my main design computer saves time when embroidering.

There are some things that I like about the MACs, but just not enough to make the switch. If/when that iMac craps out on me, it'll more than likely be replaced with a PC. More than likely with an "off the shelf" one as well since my needs for that computer are small.
 

GAC05

Quit buggin' me
.........


wayne k
guam usa
 

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skyhigh

New Member
We upgraded everything late last year....computers & software. We stayed with PC's

The title of your thread ask's for advice.... After watching the "bucket list" last night, the only extra advice I can give (beyond whats allready been given) is a quote from the movie.

Edward Cole, giving advice to his aide "Thomas"
"never pass up a bathroom, never waste a hard-on, and never trust a fart".


Sorry, it just popped into my head when I read the title of your thread.
 
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