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Newbie with several questions

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by KPC, Aug 25, 2006.

  1. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Whew.. don't ya'll get tired of fighting?

    It is so common on just about every thread..
     
  2. madisonsignguy

    madisonsignguy Member

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    If you can't see my point after all that then forget it. you are a lost cause

    I have no problem with newbies.... I think it is awesome when people get into the industry..... I have a problem with the morons who buy the machines to save a buck and think they can make the signs themselves.

    I don't think anyone on here would have jumped down the guy’s throat if he was a newbie in the sign industry. But when some guy just wants to save a buck come on.

    That’s like bringing a steak with you when you go to a restaurant and saying oh i can cook it myself
     
  3. Derf

    Derf Very Active Member

    madisonsignguy & Bradster941

    What are you two arguing about? it seems like you two speak so loud no one can hear a word you are saying.


    Just an out side point of view! I'll be quit now.... Cary on I'll get some popcorn and soda and watch the show now!
     
  4. iSign

    iSign Major Contributor

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    KPC...

    while I had to admit when I read the post hypothosizing that you were not who you say you are, & merely baiting us... I did have to consider for a second the possible truth in that, based on appearances (which of course are all we have to go on) ...but even giving you the benefit of the doubt on that score, 1 thing stuck out for me in this thread...

    First, you received 3 helpful replies right off the bat, no attitude, no accusations, no condescension... just 3 helpful posts in a row from 3 different people... THEN, you went into another long diatribe that continued to bait others (weather intentional or not, weather sincere or not...) WITHOUT ANY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT WHATSOEVER of the 3 helpful posts.

    After piling 2 posts in a row, & with your own increasingly testy attitude... you then received some, not completely unfounded, attitude from the professional sign making camp regarding the "bait" laid out in your 3 posts. Surely this must be what you were after, because even up until now... the antagonistic replies are the ONLY THING YOU RESPOND TO!!! ...Eric just tried, in the midst of the firestorm, to help you & YOU IGNORED HIM COMPLETELY, JUST LIKE THE OTHER THREE HELPFULL POSTS (5 counting Freds, & Bradsters second)

    ...also, when you go to home depot & ask for help to be a weekend warrior painting your house... the paint guy is

    A. GETTING PAID TO ANSWER YOU...

    and

    B. NOT A PAINTER TO BE OFFENDED BY YOUR "it can't be that hard" attitude, or your intent do do some friends & family business on the side.

    If you expect an hour of time from a professional would save you 2 weeks of fuking up... why don't you offer $100 for the training instead of acting like we owe it to you to give you an hour... or risk being insulted by you.

    It's not that anyone's business is so fragile that you making crap stickers at any price (or no price) would ever hurt us... it's just that crap stickers shouldn't exist, they are pollution... just like you admittedly expect your own first attempt at your own truck signs to be.

    Pride in painting your own living room (or wiring it) is one thing... but taking some misplaced pride in sticking crappy ineffective attempts at advertising on your company trucks, is not only misplaced pride, it is POOR BUSINESS!! Stick to the living room. Crappy signs are pollution & that hurts everyone!

    The other thing that bothers me in this thread is to find out that Bradster feels like any less of an important member. I don't try to keep track of peoples differences, but when I see a familiar name I just see them as "one of us" ... & I also thank Bradster for his vote of confidence that I was one he would expect to find a helpful reply from. While I would hate to tarnish that reputation, I also know I earned it through being someone who is helpful... but I'm also well known for being opinionated... so this reply may not appear to be the most constructive criticism... but, I call 'em like I see 'em!
     
  5. Pro Image

    Pro Image Major Contributor

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    KPC I'm not bashing you..........If you don't have the capacity to use Corel to make the contour cut line the you need to spend about 4200.00 on Flexi Sign Pro or Inspire XP PRO for 750.00...........These programs make it "EASIER" for a untrained person to do the job you have ask of your machine. And they also come with user manuals that are just for sign making..............As the a previous posted stated pay a professional to come and TRAIN you on your machin.............Go to Roland's website and find a dealer near you and call them and ask for some traing.......Its not that hard and you'll learn something too...............
     
  6. Pro Image

    Pro Image Major Contributor

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    Doug that is a great post too......................:thumb:
     
  7. Techman

    Techman Major Contributor

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    It aint the newbie thing thats put people off.. Its the condesending attitude that is turning people off..

    You haven't got time, you want shortcuts, you want,, you want, you want,,
    Then you goto the picked on mode. It won't work,..

    You are asking for something that cannot be given in a 5 minute lesson. You do not know what a vector is, You do not understand a cut line, you do not know your software, and you do not understand your equipment.. You are asking for what which will take a day to two.. I suggest offering to pay someone to tutor you and you may get some respect.. So, good luck..
     
  8. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    KPC - As the guy that runs this forum I would point to you that you have had your initial question responded to correctly no less than six times already without any acknowledgement from you. You make numerous contradictory statements which in most people raise their temperature and suspicion level a bit. You put forth an attitude which on several rereads can only be described as insulting to any professional signcrafter or to those many among our ranks who are striving to be.

    You indicate that the procedures of our craft are easy yet you obviously haven't come to the table prepared with the slightest hint of the basics of the art or technology we spend years attempting to master. As a 20+ year veteran of computer signmaking and having read hundreds of arrogant, lazy posts such as yours in the three years I've been running this forum by the daytrippers who visit and disappear, I can honestly understand why you have received such a mixed reception.

    Do you?

    First and foremost, you seem to have some sort of a feeling of entitlement to receiving help. You have not contributed squat to our community in the way of helping others. You also seem to feel that you are entitled to nothing but friendly reactions no matter how insulting the underlying but obvious mindset is that most will draw from the words you post.

    You don't have time to be bothered with the learning curve. There must be some DVD that tells it all as Cliff Notes does for classic literature. This is all really very simple (even if I don't have a clue as to how the technology works). Oh, and I do love a heated argument much more than responding to or even demonstrating average courtesy when some do take the time to directly supply me the answers I was seeking.

    You are wasting our time and yours by seeking answers here to intermediate level issues when you lack even a novice's experience level coupled with a rude attitude or at least a total lack of perception of how your words will cause others to react.

    Now, here again is what you need to know. There are bitmap images and there are vectors. Whenever you have a vector ... that's a good thing because vectors can not only produce excellent printed images, they also are required to drive a plotter. The second thing you need to know is that Roland plotters like to be driven from specially designated vectors. Some users make them special with a hairline stroke, some use a special color.

    Come back and say thank you after you've digested this and gotten it to work. If your attitude has improved, you'll be welcome. If not, we wish you well anyway.
     
  9. 2NinerNiner2

    2NinerNiner2 Very Active Member

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    To all those that picked up the Yellow Pages and called and supported their local plumber, electrician, carpenter, cabinet maker, painter, siding installer, roofer, auto mechanic, etc. for those "little items" to do around the shop or house, please cast the first stone! :) The hipocracy in this thread is a getting just a little thick! :)

    KPC - do as mentioned here, go to the Roland site, register (it's free :) and get the instructions on how to add a cut-line to your artwork. There are specific, step-by-step instructions on how to accomplish this in CorelDRAW. :) And BTW, bonjour de Montréal :)
     
  10. IntrezaDesigns

    IntrezaDesigns Member

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    I must say when I first came to this form I was a little scared about asking questions and such. I have learned a great deal from this form already and I have given some information back to the people on this form, But for someone to come here and ask for help then get pissy and not offer anything is pointless if you notice most members are active within this community and how do you expect them to act when being "baited" like fred and many others have said, if you can't support us then why support you, your looking for a cheap way out of the matter and it's not going to happen.
     
  11. madisonsignguy

    madisonsignguy Member

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    Well actually I do get the Yellow pages for all of that. My time is worth more money to me and I'd rather let an expert do it.

    Plus when I go to the mechanic or call the plumber there is a good chance that when we start talking I might become their signguy.
     
  12. Pro Signs & Graphix

    Pro Signs & Graphix Very Active Member

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    Bradster,
    There is nothing wrong with in-house, and there is nothing wrong with newbies (hobby people included). I, as one of the "original" posters you mention, have no problem with any of those.

    I have a problem when someone puts a cart before the horse (as Gino put it), and then turns around and asks for help. KPC should have done a little bit more research. This would be the same as KPC purchasing a tractor and some land and THEN asking questions about how to quickly start farming.

    For years I had people approaching me and asking about how to repair their own vehicles. I heard every story in the book. Even if it is for themselves, they are still competing with the professional. In itself, that approach is insulting. It is as if saying that you are not worth the cost, and that talent is easily replicated.

    Moreover, if KPC is in business, why would he want unprofessional looking work on his vehicles or at the trade shows. Image is everything. He should be spending/investing money and time to get the process down pat. Instead KPC indicates that he is to busy to invest the required time - even more of an insult.

    DIY means just that - Do it yourself. If everything was so easy and free Home Depot would have a department for signage equipment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
  13. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    Also if KCP has a business he should have listed it in his profile! Just one more thing to make us wonder.
     
  14. technowolf

    technowolf Member

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    hey,
    i think i am gonna go bye myself a radio station so can advertise myself onece a week...........
     
  15. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Well I do apologize for so-called getting testy at the fact of the "few" members who gave me attitude.

    From an outsider’s point of view, it works on the same idea, that you might make 99 / 100 customers happy. Only 1/2 of those 99 people will tell another person how happy they are with your work. But for that 1 person who feels like they got screwed, they are going to do everything that they can to tell 200 people how you screwed them over.

    With that said, sure, there might be a few people right off the bat that were kind, welcoming, and helpful, but as soon as the first person treats you like crap on your very first post on a new forum, it is like a blind-sided hit below the waist.

    When someone said, how it seems as though I am owed "for free" the privilege of being welcomed into someone’s well established professional sign making business, so that I can shadow them for an hour or 2 to "learn the rope", walk out of the business, with nothing more than a thanks, if that is how you see it, then again as it has happened more than once, you are missing the point.

    Just as I said on the industrial coating forums, there is an even mix of both complete amateurs, and multi-million dollar businesses.

    Sure, it is understood, that the multi-million dollar businesses are going to be quick to say, why don't you leave it up to the professionals to do your coatings. But for the 1 person that says that, there are 5 other people that do not do industrial coatings for a living, but rather do their own parts in the basement of their house or outside in the garage. You'll find these amateurs friendly welcoming the newbie over to their house, showing them the ropes out back in their garage or basement.

    All that is asked is bring over a pizza or beer. Many amateurs are just happy to have someone in their area who takes an interest in the same things they do.

    It is just like if I joined a forum called "housepainting101". I go on there because I don't know how to paint the living room in my house. Sure there are going to be the professionals, but you never know, maybe my next door neighbor might be on the forum because he had no idea how to paint his living room, a month or two ago. After getting the rough idea how to do it, he does his own living room. When he sees that I’m on the forum in the same boat he was in a month or two ago, he welcomes me to stop over, and shows me the tips / tricks / techniques that he used on his living room painting job.

    From an outsiders perspective, the main problem that I see is that everyone on here seems to be a little too professional. I'm sure in a way that is good, and in a way might be intended by the professionals to push away / intimidate the amateurs in order to keep the professionals on top and the amateurs at a distance.

    Put it this way, say I get to the point where I decently "know the ropes" on using the software and machine. If I stick around long enough on this forum, and someone comes on here in my area and posts the same message that I originally posted. I would be the first person to say, hey, maybe this weekend when I get some free time, you can shoot over to my place and I'll show you how to spit out a few stickers.

    For that person who has no idea how to use their machine, that feels like 150lbs was lifted off their back.

    I myself, don’t give a care if the person spent $200 on a machine or $20k on something that he / she has absolutely no idea how to use. I’d be glad to have someone over who takes an interest in the same hobby as I do.

    However, just as if someone came onto the industrial coatings forum who was a complete amateur and asked for help, I’m not going to reply or even show them that I exist in their area because there is no chance that I'm going to welcome them to my shop even if they offer me $200 / hr for training. BUT as I just said, I wouldn’t say anything. Although I might not welcome them to my shop, I’m not going to bash them either. It is a free world and if they want to do industrial coatings 3 blocks down from me in the basement of their house, that is fine by me. Sure, would I make money if they came to me instead of doing it themselves, YES, but if they want to do-it-themselves, and ask someone else in my area who also does it themselves for help, what can I do about it? Go on there and treat the both of them like crap because they are asking / looking for help in my area just because they are amateurs. Life is too short. Who cares. They are happy and they are not driving me / my business under water. I’m just going to let them be.

    The difference is amateur to amateur help, vs. an amateur asking to come shadow a professional shop.

    When I said, I just wish someone in a 150 mile radius would welcome me to their house / shop, I mean that there has to be hundreds of other guys / gals out there, that own a semi-decent machine, not a $400 cheapo and not a $200k machine, that uses their machine as a hobby to make stickers (Decals) for the side of their dirt bike.

    The message conveyed to me so far, is that by posting on this forum, I have so-called, opened the front door of the local country club and walked in without being welcomed by another club member. However, because I am just the average Joe, everyone stops talking, sets down their drink or whatever they were doing at that moment, and turns around and stares right at me, immediately giving me the feeling like what are you doing here fool. You are a lower class than us, you do not belong here, and you bring nothing to this club, so leave now.

    As said before, this forum has done an excellent job of intimidating the average zero-experience do-it-yourselfer. Regardless if the person only purchased a machine because they want to take pride in making a few decals to put on the side of their own dirt bike.

    When spending the past few days reading on the forum, everyone immediately knocks down the guys who buy the cheap $500 machines because they don't track right, they are made in China, they break, the person you call doesn't speak fluent English, etc...

    So the reason I said in my initial post to please be nice, is simply because I feel that although I don't have formal training, I did the "Right" thing by buying a machine that was at the upper limit of my budget and it is name brand machine that most of the professionals recommend for being of better quality than the "animal" named machines.

    It was a way of me stating, although I don't have actual graphic experience right off the bat, I did enough research to at least start off with good equipment. It would be more than appreciative if someone could point me in the right direction how to use it.

    If this is "putting the cart before the horse" in some peoples eyes, that is fine. I've always believed that it doesn't matter how experienced someone is, if they work with junk equipment, they will get junk results.

    So by at least starting out with a quality machine, as I get better at using the software, the end result will only get equally better. I’m not being held back because I own a junk machine that isn’t capable of producing better results. I believe this is doing things the right way.

    To the people who have been helpful, I do appreciate the help. I will use this advice to try to better myself. I will say though, that for the others who slap the newbie for not knowing anything, that it is you people who make the forum appear degrading as a whole.

    For those people, if what you do is intentional, then there is little that I can say to make any change. However, if your derogatory attitude comes naturally, then maybe you need to step back and look at your actions from an outsider’s point of view. Some day you will be in my situation where you just want to do something as a hobby, regardless if it is painting your living room, or fixing your computer. You’ll anxiously join a forum because you’ll feel that answers to your problems are just a few clicks away. You no more than so-called walk in the door (join the forum) and people slam you to the floor, kick you, make fun of you, so you run out of the door, black and blue eye, wondering whoa what the F**K just happened. I thought I was gonna get some friendly help and I get a beat down instead.

    If you can be humble enough to sit back and truly look at it, I bet I’m not that far off with my outlook.

    Just something to think about if you guys care for this forum to be welcoming to all, regardless if they are professionals or amateurs.

    My $.02

     
  16. KPC

    KPC Member

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    As for the guy who said about buying a radio station so that he can advertise his business once a week.

    Are there any people out there, who build a separate garage off the side of their house, install a $5,000 vehicle lift, $2,000 air compressor, $1,000 worth of tire changing equipment, $10,000 in snap-on tools, etc...? They do all of this just because they enjoy the idea of being able to work on their own cars.

    How about the retired gentleman who hasn't done any wood working since he was in high school 50+ years ago.

    But he goes out and drops nearly $50K on woodworking equipment, for his shop out back, because he wants to be able to make a new set of kitchen cabinets. He wants to make his own wood trim floorboards.

    Can you go to your local home improvement store, and buy the wood trim for $.50 a foot? Sure... Not including the cost of the equipment, just for the retired guy to buy materials, pay the electric bill, etc... to make his own floor trim, he has $1.50 tied up per foot.

    Is that going to cause him to not buy the equipment, even though he hasn't had any experience working with wood crafting in 50+ years and that he can buy the finished product for cheaper? NO, that isn't enough to cause him to not buy the equipment or even waste money doing-it-himself

    It is a hobby to some. Regardless if it is something that they come to with previous experience, or if it is something that they haven't done in over 50+ years, some people like to do things themselves.

    A few things to think about from this outsider’s point of view.
     
  17. DJDesigns

    DJDesigns New Member

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    I don't say much, but the main thing I saw where you started your downfall was the comment - I don't have the time to "self learn" how to become semi-decent in the world-of-signs

    You say so called amateur, well that means trial and error will be your best learning tool.

    Back on the topic - I did a search on Yahoo - this is what I typed, cutting with roland pc600
    And low and behold the very first link led me to a source that told exactly what you need to know. It led me to the exact page on signsupplystore.com with a pdf titled PC600 Setting a Cut Line

    So go check that out and it will tell you step by step what you need to know. But I semi agree with some statements, the main issue I saw was your blatant disreguard for the time to learn something, that can be self taught, like half the examples you listed with just trial and error and learning from your mistakes. Also instead of breaking into the argument on post 9 you should have asked for more details if needed to the helpful information you recieved and things would have worked out quicker and better for you.
     
  18. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Taking your metaphor, you walk through the doors of the country club and announce yourself. Some people already there turn and issue a friendly greeting. Others turn and take exception to the things you said when you announced yourself. You launch into arguing with the latter group and ignoring the welcomers. In the end, you have worn out your welcome with many in the former group and have established to all that you have an attitude and lack certain manners that most among us have mastered.

    This forum is a community. Anyone can move here. Some will be gregarious and make lots of friends. Some will keep mostly to themselves. And some will be abrasive and/or ill-mannered and will not get along with most of their neighbors.

    You have missed the point completely as to this community. We have lots of parttimers and hobbyists among us who are spread among the personality types listed above. We also have lots of seasoned professionals ... again, who are spread among the personality types listed above.

    You entered our community and, with or without realizing it, posted some statements which were abrasive and insulting to many. You got a predictable reaction. You can either come to terms with that or not ... makes no nevermind to me. But it isn't the fault of Signs 101. We are what we are (which we think is pretty much okay). We are not seeking advice or counsel on how to make you feel at home because we manage to accomplish that with no difficulty a couple of hundred times a month.

    The responsibility for the fracas you've experienced rests totally with you. You're welcome to residency in our community and to enjoy the benefits of citizenship. You are not entitled to friendship, respect or even courtesy. Those are all human emotions which are normally earned through positive behavior.
     
  19. KPC

    KPC Member

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    I agree with the last post. It was a bad choice of wording on my part.

    Maybe I jumped to early into asking for help before doing more research, or maybe I just came on here looking as though I didn't care to learn on my own. It was more of a frustration, because I had spent over 2 days trying to figure out how to at least print and cut my very first decal, and I couldn't get it to work.

    Regardless if it takes 2 days, 10 days, or 10 years, when you buy a piece of equipment and you spend hours and hours and can't get it to do the most basic function, it builds a great deal of frustration.

    I hope that even if I said this 15 posts too late, that it is better said than not said at all.

    I very much apprecaite the "cutting with roland pc600" on yahoo. I will do a search on that, and as for the Roland forum, the gears turn slow over there. I'm still waiting to get authorized on the forum.
     
  20. Jillbeans

    Jillbeans Major Contributor

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    I just hope the Roland doesn't short out on your home-wired electricity.

    Hey if you want your new stickers to look really nice, print them in red on white Avery A8...it's great material.
    And use an effective font, say Brush Script, in all caps for that professional look.
    Be sure to run the lettering right out to the edges of your material, to make the best use of your advertising dollar.

    :cool1:

    Jill
     
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