Profiling...Been At this for a year, no luck

[dayusmc]

Thanks for all the input. I am not really worried about the printer matching the monitor so much. I just would kind of want it somewhat close, meaning a red looks somewhat red, not light ping. I know the screen is never going to match the monitor because light (especially my monitor, Ultra bright Dell on a ATG D630 made for outdoors) My whole thing is that, I know my printer/Ink can give me the Red and Blue I want because I get it when I use the VersaWorks. But the other colors are way off. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
I bought multiple Copies of SignLab for multiple computers (My laptop that I work on, My wife's Laptop so she can make stuff, My Roland Printer computer, My Gerber printer computer) I know I could set up the remote VPM , I just thought it easier to have more than not enough. I now use my laptop to print on the Gerber (I only print on the Gerber when I print on clear)- my wife is too busy studying to play around with it, so she doesn't use hers. But CadLink's Tech support is so good, I didn't mind spending the money. The only thing they haven't been able to help me with is the color thing. One Tech is working on it with me now, but not sure we are going to get it. <o></o>
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My thought is that with the ione, I should have been able to- Print test patches, scan them, reprint then (hoping the first scan corrected a little), rescan them, and create an icc or icm and use that in my print mode. I know this wouldn't get the best colors, but hoping it would have given me a baseline to work off of. <o></o>
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Not sure what "profile" to start with when doing my scans because there isn't any printer/paper/ink profile like mine already. I didn't try to keep doing it over and over with the print mode I created, but it didn't change.<o></o>
Please excuse my lack of knowledge with this stuff. I was a rifleman/FDC in the Corps, Know I am in IT for a living. I actually got started with this printing, because I do computer work for a couple of sign guys. <o></o>
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I know once I figure the basics out, it will come a lot easier. Thank you everyone for being patient with me.<o></o>

 

[iSign]

Not sure what "profile" to start with when doing my scans because there isn't any printer/paper/ink profile like mine already.

I think you should take Rodi's advice & set everything back to default, use canned profiles, use Rolands versaworks & use OEM inks... beyond that you might also want to make sure you are not color blind, because that combination works fine for hundred or thousands of professionals every day!

...oh, and to hell with gray anyway... I tossed out a sprinter half wrap worth of printing because my Mimaki gray wasn't any good & I had to apply multiple layers of cut vinyl... I beat my head against the wall for a short time on that, but these machines have limitations, so you have to scale your expectations in line with that. This is NOT fine art reproduction, and if you or your sign buddies have too unrealistic of an expectation, you will spend another year trying to build a better mousetrap... better to make do with what everyone else lives with.

 

[dayusmc]

What's the monitor got to do with it? The instructions are step by step, clear as crystal..with screen shots.
Are you Forbie? If you can't follow this...man, give it up.

Is this you Mosh?

Didn't know what you ment by are you Forbie, I thought that was some sort of slag for a bad printer or something. I just noticed a post by a guy with screen name "Forbie", No it is not me, but pretty much same issue. I tried signing up on Cadlinks fourms, but link is not working for me. I have been working on the instuctions on that link you gave me. Having a little trouble balenceing out the Grey, but I am still working on it.

 

[iSign]

Having a little trouble balenceing out the Grey, but I am still working on it.

welcome to inkjet printing.
Let us know when you solve the worlds problems.
Don't mind us making money & moving on without waiting...

 

[dayusmc]

Thank you everyone for all your help and your positive input. I will keep trying to get it somewhat close, I just need it to be decent, not looking for prefection. I am going to countinue to work in the signlab to try and get this right, if all else fails, I will try to get it to work in VersaWorks. If none of that works, I will sell my Signlab and buy OYNX.

 

[dayusmc]

Ok, finished setting up a profile using the method in the link that astro8 provided. I got back to where I was last year (That's a good thing) colors not bad and believe it or not as close to the screen colors as they could ever be. I have a couple questions- Will the profile that "Start with" (base profile when I start to make a print mode package) make a difference with my end result? So know I am actully make changes to the values of the colors (Changing CMYK values) What is the best way to "Change" a color, eg. change CMYK values or do it in RBB values? My Red is still no where as good is if I print in VersaWorks. My Red Values are C=0 M=100 Y=100 K=0 it is a little orangey, I need it to be more of a "Red".
Also Thank you Rodi for you help.

 

[astro8]

Hey dayusmc,

Now you're making far, far more sense...C=0 M=100 Y=100 K=0 will usually be a little
'orangey' with Techink. Techink has a very strong yellow. Roland has a very good magenta. (If you were to put a Roland cartridge back in your printer now, everything would have a magenta cast). In theory this shouldn't matter as profiling is supposed to correct for this, but we live in the real world.

What to do? What I used to do when using Techink in mimaki's is build a profile with a little heavier magenta. Or you can compensate with your red's by cutting back on the yellow content. Example, instead of sending C=0 M=100 Y=100 K=0, use C=0 M=100 Y=85 K=0. But know one thing, what I have found is that Techink reds are more 'lifelike' than Roland's 'pop'....and we all like the pop.

Another way around all this is to go back to using Roland ink with Versaworks. I find it hard to understand why you weren't getting good colour out of your printer with the original setup. Roland's are known for good colour straight out of the box. This is the way I would go, as Techink is harder on your printers heads, capping station, dampers, pumps everything. Don't listen to anyone tell you otherwise.
In the end the money saved by using 3rd party inks can be easily consumed plus more by replacing parts, paralysing frustration and posting all over the web for answers off arsehat 'know-it-alls' like me, ahaha!.

 

[dayusmc]

I considered going back to Roland ink, But bought 4000ml of each color of Tech Ink. It was A LOT of money. I am playing with making profiles all night. One thing I was unsure of is- what "Base profile" to start with? The profile I made in the past has real good dot seperation (I think, looks good to me) and looks smooth- just orangey reds. So should I use that profile to start with? Thanks again for everone's help!!!

 

[astro8]

I haven't physically went through it in Signlab, but the base profile shouldn't make any difference as you'll be overwriting it anyway, just pick something similar to start with. Media selection isn't critical either, if it looks orangey on one media, sure as hell it'll look orangey on another. Are you using something like a 720x720 8 pass or you'll never get a real solid red.

Try and increase your magenta ink limit a little and reduce your yellow a little. (Techink yellow is super dark and strong). Cyan and Black Techink seem to behave as expected.

If your grays are pink, cut back the magenta, if they are green, cut back yellow and touch of cyan...

Ok, we know you're stuck with the Techink for now, just pay extra attention to maintenance.

I just noticed... keep using the same profile as a base, keep trying to improve on it.

 

[dayusmc]

I know what you are saying about maintenance- went through cap tops like crazy!!! Most of the problem is that if you don't use the printer daily the ink drys in the hoses on the cap tops (I really have to find out where to buy just the hose) The step I am at now is- I am setting max ink for the 4 colors and printing test prints, I put the Yellow at 75% and left the rest at 100% (MY looks less orange in test print) I just printed the patchs to scan. I am doing that now. The bigest difference that I see in what I am doing now (with everyone's help) is adjusting the Max ink for each color. I thought that the test swatchs that I scaned corrected all that for me (Like you said, we live in the real world) When I started making these profiles last year I was useing SignLab 8 Build 3, I just updated my signlab last week to build 10 and it seems that the Advanced Calibration Wizard is different (Better).

 

[astro8]

Ink limits (max ink)I think I ran was C95 M100 Y75 K90....something around that.

You'll come to a place soon enough that is near the limit of what you can achieve, then you can tweak a little here and there. It sounds as if your getting your mind around it, keep at it until you get a profile that you can work with if you can as you'll walk away and come back next week and forget half of what is in your mind at the moment.

Profile your monitor with your i1 as well, try and get everything set up as best you can and then accept it ( you can still have a profile that you are constantly tweaking on the side if you have the time) and learn to work within your equipments limitations.

 

[dayusmc]

Thanks! I profiled my monitors with the i1 already. I did notice that in Signlab, the best (Closest to print out) was when I turned Color Management off. I have 2 computers that I use (Design on one, print on a dedicated printer computer) The one i design on has a real bright (For out doors) monitor. My print monitor has a more realistic "look". Is the goal of "Profiling" the printer to get the prints to look the same as the Pantone CMYK solid coated swatchs? One big thing that baffels me is, input profiles in the print mode. Should I keep these to "Get from print mode". While I am building the profile, I used the ones that the tutorial in the link you gave me said to use.

I know my posts are a little hard to understand. I am still trying to learn the right Terminoligy.

I thought (Big mistake) that the i1 was suppose to scan all these swatchs and adjust the print out to a certain "standard", that way when you make a change to the CMYK values, it was more standerized.

One big question- After (When ever that may be) I get the printer/RIP profiled, when I "Create" a color do I make a Prosces color with CMYK values or do "Create" it using RGB values or do I try and make a spot color? I don't print photos or anything. I only print stuff that I make in SignLab, no imports or anything like that.

 

[astro8]

Is the goal of "Profiling" the printer to get the prints to look the same as the Pantone CMYK solid coated swatchs?

The goal of profiling is to get the prints to look like whatever you send to the printer, but sadly this isn't always the outcome.

You can print whatever you design in Signlab as the rip will be set up for it.

If you design in CMYK your output will be more predictable from screen to print, especially with a 4 colour printer.

Go through the tutorial again piece by piece and make sure you haven't overlooked anything, one unticked box can have disastrous results. I'll go through it again and my Signlab tonight (my time) and see if I can pickup on anything you may have missed. With any luck the guy who wrote this may log on here, as he does sometimes, but he's probably sipping beers and chewing on prawns (shrimps).

 

[dayusmc]

Thanks. I though that using CMYK to try and make my colors would be best since that is what the printer prints in. I think (Not sure) that the Max ink part of making the profile is "Crucial" to making the colors come out right. So that has been the part that I have been messing with the most. Is the "MY" colume supose to be the most "red", meaning should I be correcting that the most since the TechInk's Yellow is so strong. Went through the instructions again, it seems I am doing everything correctly.

 

[iSign]

well, I gotta say props to dayusmc for the motivation to study this & big props to Astro for the help... both of you are so far over my head now I don't really belong in this conversation... BUT, i do want to ask about what i perceive to be a majority of signfolk running inkjet printers and using RGB files. That is ALL I use, and have seen majority opinion on this several times. Is that only for us guys using the canned profiles?

 

[astro8]

Hey iSign....just depends the way you have your workflow setup. I'll print RGB also, some photographic stuff, stuff we create inhouse..especially where you want colours to pop.

A lot of our work comes through designers and agencies in CMYK files. So it makes sense to print it the way that they are expecting it to look. It might not take advantage of all the gamut that my printer is capable of, but it's more consistant across the board with their offset printed stuff and advertising.

 

[astro8]

Hey dayusmc...I've re-read through it all and think you may be getting confused from this area of the tutorial and down...

Select to Change ICC by unchecking the RGB and CMYK input tags and select the output tag to be Cadlink Gen Inkjet.icm.
This is the setting we will use to print the i1 targets. We don't want any input profiles altering the colours at this stage, but we need to specify an output profile to be able to print with.

All this stuff is crucial to getting a good profile.

 

[Rodi]

The artwork dayusmc has created is excellent, line are type with minimal gradient (what I saw), essentially could b e printed offset as spot colors.

In SignLab can you tweak spot colors? Like say I have PMS 185 and the printed version is way too yellow, where I can knock down the yellow just in PMS 185? If that is possible, with this type of work you would need just minimal profiling.

 

[CES020]

Just out of curiosity, what hobby do you use this for? That's a very expensive setup and operating costs for a hobby. Whatcha doing with it? Just curious, no hidden meaning behind the question.

 

[Antonyu]

I'm confused about this topic.
Speaking about my experience the steps to profile a CMYK ink printer are:

- Print the linearization CMYK chart and read them with i1 (for example) to choose each C M Y K % for D-Max (or P-Max as some guys call it).
- Print the ink limit chart and choose the best value until becomes overkill.
- TURN OFF any color management of any kind of the RIP software and print the test charts.
- Read test charts with i1 and creat a color profile. You may need to creat several color profiles using diferent algorithmes of the profile software you are using. Take into account diferent white color temperature and so on... it all depends how complete (and complex) is the profiling software.
- Turn ON the color management on the RIP with the linearization and ink limit values previously chosen, load one of the created profiles and print a test image that has B&W and color images.
- Choose the profile that is most to your linking.
- Edit that profile to sort it to suit your liking. Remember that is possible to fine tune only the gray scales, althou it will mess up a little of the color image... but with practice you get there

Remember that you should NEVER print test charts with color management ON in the RIP software.
Remember that you should NEVER read more than one set of test charts to try to get on profile even more accurate (this violates the rule above so no go).


Also, you should check ink shelf life. Taking the example of UV inks, they usually have 6 to 12months of shelf life and once expired colors go way off and ink adhesivity to substrates start to go mental.