Profiling...Been At this for a year, no luck

[dayusmc]

Thanks for repling Neil. I am using Eyeone and its software for the icc profiling. I used both of the templates in versaworks for starting the profiles. None of the canned profiles look good, they all give a grainy output. I was thinking the same about it being the dot placement. For the banding, is my max ink level to high? I think I am going to flush the printer and put oem ink back in and profile it and see what happens. I had good luck with the Tech Ink in my Falcon JR, it printed way better than OEM ink, but on the Roland I don't think it works so great.
Has anyone had good luck with Triangle or mega ink in a SP300v?
I can say this- VersaWorks is much nicer than CadLinks VPM. None of the flacky issues of default settings changing for no reasons. I like it much better!!!

 

[heyskull]

I'm glad to see you pulled away from using Signlab as your RIP.
I probably spent 2 years trying to make the damn thing work.
I now design in Signlab and output on Wasatch.
Signlab was way to compicated and all it did was make you go round in circles.

I now am happy with a close match to colours and have realised I can't paint the world using 4 colours!

If a customer comes in wanting an exact match to a colour I ask, first I will need a physical reference and CMYK and RGB codes for the colour and if it is not matchable then tell them I can't match it and it will become expensive to do so.
This normally makes them accept what is shown.

One little footnote and I don't know if this affects others but the faster/lower resolution I make the print the further they are out.

SC

 

[dayusmc]

I am really happy with the way VersaWorks is set up. With the new "Print to Versaworks" feature I bought for my signlab, it is real easy to print and cut. I just select what I want to print and contour cut, go to file>Print to VersaWorks and it goes right into the rip, with the cutline and all!! It is really nice. I would try other high dollar rips, but it wouldn't be that easy to print and cut.
One thing I was wondering, since I am using a different RIP, in signlab do I turn color management off?

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

do I turn color management off

What you really should be doing is looking for a class on color management and workflow. It is nowhere as easy as everybody makes it sound. Once you get some formal training (1 day, not a tech stopping by) the rest will fall into place quickly and easily.

As for the RIP, there is nothing wrong with Versworks just as there is nothing wrong with Cadlink's VPM. Your design software AND your RIP need to be properly tuned to work together - and I am not referring to using the i1.

 

[MachServTech]

As for the RIP, there is nothing wrong with Versworks

I dont think you can profile in Versaworks, just re-calibrate (AKA re-linearize)

 

[Neil]

None of the canned profiles look good, they all give a grainy output.QUOTE]

This is strange. Even though you're using unsupported 3rd party inks, you shouldn't get grainy prints with all of the profiles. Surely one or two must print okay, albeit with bad colour? have you tried different resolutions/passes?

Same goes with banding.
Is the printer firing 100% nozzles?
Do you have any trouble with ink starvation during printing?

If the printer and inks are working fine then there's no need to switch back to oem - you should be able to make a good printmode/profile.

Although, if you do switch back at least you will have all those canned profiles to use and may not need to create your own after all. It is a pretty common garden variety piece of kit and widely supported.

But that defeats the purpose of having an eye1 and bulk inks...

 

[Neil]

.
One thing I was wondering, since I am using a different RIP, in signlab do I turn color management off?

I would recommend you set it up the same as you would if you were using Signlab's rip.
Like I explained in the step by step over on Cadlinks site:
http://www.cadlink.com/support_train/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1670

Except, for the printer profile, where it says "use Printmode's ICC" you would select your Versaworks output ICC. The one you create in i1 Match.

This will mean Signlab will softproof using that profile and you'll get good WYSIWYG

 

[dayusmc]

VersaWorks has a profiling tool in it, but you must also have third party software to do it.
Neil, I agree I should get at least some good prints from one of the canned profiles. But I don't. I spent thousands on i1 and other stuff to get the third party inks (Tech Ink) to work. I replaced Both Heads, Motherboard, lines, little board that the heads connect to, cap tops, dampners, and everything else. the tech said the printer is funtioning perfect. But I get the same result same results. So I think it might be the ink. It is funny, when I had a Falcon JR the Tech INK worked better than OEM, that is why I stuck with it. But it is very different than OEM. When I made the profile for the Falcon JR, I had the same problem with grainyness at first, Somehow I found a profile in Flexi, that I used in SignLab as a starting point for my profile. I got it to work great. But no luck with the Roland. I was thinking of trying an OEM compatible ink like MegaINK EcoMG that they sell at fellers.
Has anyone Ever Used MegaINK or any other third party ink that uses stock profiles?

Pro Sign- I wouldn't mind taking a one day class on workflow and color management (as long as it wasn't one of those classes where all they do is try to get you to buy stuff and if it taught me something more than I already know) But I don't kn ow anywhere in NJ that has anything like that. Also, what do you mean "Your design software AND your RIP need to be properly tuned to work together - and I am not referring to using the i1"?
Kyle

 

[MachServTech]

VersaWorks has a profiling tool in it, but you must also have third party software to do it.

Hey I'm not trying to pick on you but in the interest of clarity I think its important to make sure everyone knows YOU CANT BUILD AN ICC PROFILE IN VERSAWORKS!

Now I think you are saying you can start the process, but that doesn't do the job. Lets not confuse folks.

Versaworks= Recalibrate your existing profiles using an i1 or other spectro.

Some other RIPS will let you build the profile start to finish (ONYX, Flexi, Caldera, Colorgate, EFI...etc.)

 

[dayusmc]

Hey I'm not trying to pick on you but in the interest of clarity I think its important to make sure everyone knows YOU CANT BUILD AN ICC PROFILE IN VERSAWORKS!

Now I think you are saying you can start the process, but that doesn't do the job. Lets not confuse folks.

Versaworks= Recalibrate your existing profiles using an i1 or other spectro.

Some other RIPS will let you build the profile start to finish (ONYX, Flexi, Caldera, Colorgate, EFI...etc.)

In those other RIPs, How do you build Profiles different than it is in VersaWorks? Maybe that is what I need something that works different. In SignLab it lets you build (from what I can tell) profiles also. But I still didn't get good results, better than what I did with versaworks. In versaworks, you have to use thrid party software to make the icc file, but as far as I can tell, everything else is the same. Here is the link to the manual I used.
http://support.rolanddga.com/docs/Documents/departments/Technical%20Services/Manuals%20and%20Guides/VersaWorks3_Profiling.pdf
Any info is always helpfull. I know I don't use all the right teminoligy, but I am trying. I considered buying a different RIP, but I like VersaWorks interface and ease of use with SignLab. So hopefully I can get better results. Thank you again for all your input and help!!!

 

[MachServTech]

In those other RIPs, How do you build Profiles different than it is in VersaWorks?

Instead of building the ICC in another piece of software everything is internal including the generation of the ICC.

The most popular is Onyx Productionhouse. (soon to be X11)
SAi Flexi works and has superior print cut features and builds ICCs

Caldera is Mac and Linux based, but is a good profiling rip.

EFI is very accurate but used mostly with aqueous printers.

 

[P Wagner]

I dont think you can profile in Versaworks, just re-calibrate (AKA re-linearize)

You are semi-correct with this statement. Versaworks lacks the capacity to build the ICC profile. It does allow for primary channel ink limiting, linearization (calibration), and total ink limiting. It also allows for ICC profiles that have been built using 3rd-party software apps (ProfileMaker, i1Match, Monaco etc) to be used.

In terms of profiling capability, Versaworks is identical in functionality and structure to Wasatch SoftRIP.

 

[Neil]

And looking at that pdf manual, it's similar to Signlab's printmode creation too. So as long as you start with an appropriate printmode, you should end up with an accurate icc along with good ink restrictions, linearization etc.
So, not sure where it's going wrong. Perhaps some pics of the output you're getting would help, along with all the info you can give...

 

[dayusmc]

And looking at that pdf manual, it's similar to Signlab's printmode creation too. So as long as you start with an appropriate printmode, you should end up with an accurate icc along with good ink restrictions, linearization etc.
So, not sure where it's going wrong. Perhaps some pics of the output you're getting would help, along with all the info you can give...

Again, thank you all for your help. I emailed the guy I was buying the ink from, he no loger sells it. He said he had a customer that needed my ink because they were running short. His customer called me. What I found out was that he couldn't get good results either. He paid ($4000) for someone to come out and load a profile into his rip to make it work. He gets great prints now. But he had trouble in the beging too. He uses the Tech INK because it really works great outdoors unlaminated and also the price he was getting at ($75 a litter) was great and he goes through a lot of ink.
Well I think that is a little too expensive for me (considering I already spent an insane amount trying to get this to work) To be honest, the company (Tech INK who is actully HP) should provide us with better support.
I am looking at Solaris Roland Max-Life Eco-Sol Ink. I called the company, they have good tech support. Fellers said they sell a ton of it with no complaints. It is $150 a litter, that is about half of OEM ink. So does anyone have any experiance with this ink?
I deffinatly think my problem is with the Ink after talking to the guy who uses it. Maybe if I cahnge the Ink my profiles will acctully come out good.
Any Thoughts?

 

[javila]

Regarding the profiling process inside of rips:

Most rips allow you to create the printing profile for you inkset, they do not however create the ICC profile for your inkset.

It's a distinction that should be made.

Your ICC profile contains the color space information of the profile.

Your printer profile contains the information of how to turn those color values into physical colors.

Printer profiles have ICC profiles inside of them alongside the conversion information.

In order to build a printer profile you also need third party software to create the ICC profile.

I believe flexi has the components to create the ICC profile but it doesn't seem to be very good.

 

[MachServTech]

In terms of profiling capability, Versaworks is identical in functionality and structure to Wasatch SoftRIP.

Without the ICC.... there is no "profiling" in the current sense of the word as it is used in our industry to "create Icc profiles"

So Im not half right....im right......this bullshit marketing speak confuses way too many people and then they get frustrated when the rip they bought doesnt do what they expected it would.

-an ink limit does not profiling make!

I have made hundreds of icc profiles using Onyx, Caldera, Flexi and EFI.

Now what Versaworks has are settings, ink restrictions and calibrations...all of which are fine if the ICC added on at the end is accurate. (ICC cant be made in Versaworks)

I'm not trying to be an a$$.... I'm just trying to be as clear as possible for those of us that are newer to color management and need to understand the differences.

 

[dayusmc]

I know I don't always use the right terminolgy. I understand what you are saying. Signlab has all the stuff to make an icc but VersaWorks doesn't include it and you have to buy 3rd party software to do it completly. I Just ordered the Solaris Max-Life Eco-SolInk, My friend that has the same printer as me, said all his friend with the same printer use this ink. I will give it a shot. I am going to set up all the settings like Neil has in his manual (as best as I can apply them to versaworks) and see how I do.
Neil, I tried taking pics of the output prints, but it is hard to see anything in them. I am going to try and set up SignLab and VersaWorks with all your settings and see how it goes. Thank you for the help!!!

 

[dayusmc]

OK, I cleaned all the Tech INK out of my printer. I did a head wash, Changed all the Dampners, Cap Stations, Wippers, spatoon pad and cleaned around the heads.

My new Ink comes in today. First thing I am going to do after loading the ink, is to try and print using stock Roland profiles and see how it looks. If it looks good, I am going to try and make a new profile. My question is- Should I start with the Generic profile when making an new profile or should I start with a Roland profile if it print OK?

 

[MachServTech]

Starting with an existing media setting can be helpful when building a new profile. It answers things like resolution, pass count and vardot for you already. You can then focus on Ink Limits and Calibration.

 

[dayusmc]

OK, I built 2 profiles. One starting from the Generic B profile and one starting from a roland profile. They both pool exactly the same and pretty good. The Blue is actully blue!!! Reds are still a little pink/orange. But not that it matters but, the colors are pretty close to the colors on the screen. Now my next task is to "Link" colors in VersaWorks to SignLab. I think I do that in the spot color section of versaworks. One thing I did notice- I have about 4 misaligned nozles on the Magenta head. Should I replace the Head?