ROFL.... "Print" shops

[TimToad]

Try not too be too concerned. You should be volunteering because you feel fulfilled by doing so. So what if management is sloppy... you step up and lead the pack. So what if they give a job to someone who doesn't show up... you don't know what that person is going through that weekend.

You seem to complain an awful lot about life events, about things that happen to you and focus on all that's wrong with the world. If California decided to allow a church to be built I would hope you consider attending, it might teach you to be a little happier.

Or you could just mind your own business and skip over all of my posts..

 

[GAC05]

Stay strong, people out there need us!

Most likely fake but still worth a lower case lol

 

[bmt Promotions]

This is why we need basic income, there are too many people out there trying to run a business that should stay home and collect a check.

 

[TimToad]

This is why we need basic income, there are too many people out there trying to run a business that should stay home and collect a check.

You are aware that anyone advocating for a basic income is suggesting an amount so low that it would only augment one's earned income in the face of the coming transformation of our economy due to AI, automation and other job killing factors, not replace the need to work at all?

Or are you just being sarcastic?

 

[kcollinsdesign]

So, if I understand this properly a company or even a single person working outta their dining room can buy and sell things cheaper than one who makes it themselves ??

Absolutely. A small fabrication shop with a couple of printers and laminators, a MIG welder and a plastic tarp spray booth cannot compete with a large automated production facility. Shipping costs have gone down drastically because more and more companies are outsourcing key components. You do, however, need to be smart about it. Good, solid field surveys and accurate specifications are essential.

 

[TimToad]

Absolutely. A small fabrication shop with a couple of printers and laminators, a MIG welder and a plastic tarp spray booth cannot compete with a large automated production facility. Shipping costs have gone down drastically because more and more companies are outsourcing key components. You do, however, need to be smart about it. Good, solid field surveys and accurate specifications are essential.

I'll concede your point that on many low end, mass produced, no brainer sign products a person in your model can outsource everything and make a decent living at it. But what about the kind of custom, fully fabricated projects many of us aspire to do on a regular basis?

Okey dokey......... I want to know how much it would COST you to outsource all of the components, assembly and installation of this recently completed projecting sign we did 95% of in house.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Waste of time

 

[TimToad]

Tim, I think the point he's making is "be smart about it".

95% of calls I get are signs that dont look like yours. They are mostly run of the mill poly faces, Gemini letters, storefront wraps, ACM post and panel and such... where one can outsource a good chunk of the production side.

If I got a call about a sign like what you have I'd just refer it out. Good for you to be the one that wants to do those, but not everyone is like you. (Shocking right?) Just be glad there are people out there like us that take the "mass produced, no-brainer" jobs as you say, and leaves the twirly ones for you to tinker around with and make yourself feel even more superior then anyone else.

Seriously, all you do is brag on yourself, tell everyone how successful and superior you are, condescend anyone else's thinking that is different then yours, curse and put people down and pretend to feel sorry for "working class people"... I tell you, for someone who cares so much about "working class people" you sure have alot of hate to sprew on these forums... never once seen you show any of that demoractic "caring" on here to your fellow sign-makers. Nope, I bet you'll curse me out and run off and toot your own horn about how much smarter you are then anyone one else on here.

Go back to reading Yahoo news and before you post a reply, be sure to thesaurus the words you really want to use to make yourself sound smarter...its all a front you put on that everyone sees right through.

At least I'm capable of doing a "twirly" sign. I'm not bragging on anything. I'm sincerely interested in KCollins take on what a sign like that would cost to be completely outsourced.

If ANYBODY else had posted a photo of a nice looking sign, you'd be complimenting it. Of course, you'd find a way to turn it into an insult. It's just another example of your double standard, jealousy and immature pettiness.

You're a hypocrite and trying to be a bully but not having much luck at it.

And no its not "shocking" at all that most other signmakers would want to do cool looking, effective, well designed and eye appealing signs instead of the bottom feeder work for half a dozen other mediocre shops in your area. Doing great looking work is what motivates MOST of us. You are the outlier, not most of us.

It's hilarious that the guy who once picked on the grammar and spelling of a member whose first language isn't English and has the worst spelling of anyone I see posting here would be lecturing anyone about words, spelling or grammar.

 

[equippaint]

I haven't seen any wholesale pricing that knocks my socks off. S365 is at $5/sq ft on cast, $2.50/sq on 3651 cal, $8 on 5650. They're cleaning up. It's 2x cost of my small potatoes operation here, can only imagine what they're making. There's a lot of money left on the table not doing in house production even at the most basic level. The bog for me is layout and design and no one wants to pay for it either. Not sure why someone would want to go that route.

 

[TimToad]

I haven't seen any wholesale pricing that knocks my socks off. S365 is at $5/sq ft on cast, $2.50/sq on 3651 cal, $8 on 5650. They're cleaning up. It's 2x cost of my small potatoes operation here, can only imagine what they're making. There's a lot of money left on the table not doing in house production even at the most basic level. The bog for me is layout and design and no one wants to pay for it either. Not sure why someone would want to go that route.

The costs for low end and temporary type work is pretty low, but the problem isn't in the costs, it's in the refusal of some to price the end product accordingly.

 

[Johnny Best]

I'll concede your point that on many low end, mass produced, no brainer sign products a person in your model can outsource everything and make a decent living at it. But what about the kind of custom, fully fabricated projects many of us aspire to do on a regular basis?

Okey dokey......... I want to know how much it would COST you to outsource all of the components, assembly and installation of this recently completed projecting sign we did 95% of in house.

If I remember right Tim, you outsource your CNC routing to a carpentry shop next door, so they probably made the cut out letters and leaves. Should have cut out the smaller type also instead of a flat panel so as to flow better. But, that is beside the point because you probably consider the CNC stuff at 5%, I consider it about 45% or more.

 

[equippaint]

The costs for low end and temporary type work is pretty low, but the problem isn't in the costs, it's in the refusal of some to price the end product accordingly.

If you are talking about the pricing I posted, it really isn't though when you consider that they are running RTP files. As far as pricing the end product correctly, someone with this as a side gig tacking on 20-30% is good for them. The wholesalers would not exist today without people from this industry. So there is no one to blame but people from within for building a feasible business that it is accessible to designers and sofa surfers. It's a slippery slope, today everyone says to sub out banners, tomorrow it will be flat signs. I thought banners used to be good business too?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Water of time

 

[TimToad]

If you are talking about the pricing I posted, it really isn't though when you consider that they are running RTP files. As far as pricing the end product correctly, someone with this as a side gig tacking on 20-30% is good for them. The wholesalers would not exist today without people from this industry. So there is no one to blame but people from within for building a feasible business that it is accessible to designers and sofa surfers. It's a slippery slope, today everyone says to sub out banners, tomorrow it will be flat signs. I thought banners used to be good business too?

Everybody has their own motivations for why they work the way they work.

This reminds me of the Michael Keaton character in Mr. Mom. "I'm a carmaker. I love what I'm doing and care"

Some people find the process of "making signs" to be distasteful or a hassle for their own reasons. I don't understand it and its not why I entered this trade, craft, whatever gyou want to call it.

I can only think that there are tons of other higher income potential things to sell or be part of.

I will say that the fraternity of others I know who love it and find it a very enjoyable way to make a good living AND be fulfilled creatively is huge and great people. 200 sign people just finished a week of mural painting in Keene, NH. They designed, met, worked together as teams and painted 20 large murals on a week. Not me those are the sign people I admire. Every year they go somewhere else and beautify a town and get to meet lots of other like minded artists.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I'll concede your point that on many low end, mass produced, no brainer sign products a person in your model can outsource everything and make a decent living at it. But what about the kind of custom, fully fabricated projects many of us aspire to do on a regular basis?

Okey dokey......... I want to know how much it would COST you to outsource all of the components, assembly and installation of this recently completed projecting sign we did 95% of in house.

Tim,

I do signs like this all the time. The frame would be built by a local welding shop, then sent over to a paint shop for powder coating. The dimensional elements would be outsourced (routed PVC with acrylic polyurethane finish). I would probably also route the lettering in the bottom dimensional panel. The wood panels are something I can easily handle myself (I have access to two shops, but this could easily be done out of my garage). I would finish the wood with DEFY epoxy-fortified stain. I would assemble the sign and stage it for installation at either my small shop or my installer's somewhat larger shop.

Shipping costs would be minimal because the component dimensional parts could be sent UPS. All the material handling costs for the frame and painting would be handled by the welder (he goes back and forth to the painter all the time). Neither of the two shops I use has any fabrication equipment other than saw-horses and hand tools (like I said, I could easily do this out of my garage, but I would probably assemble the sign at the installers shop).

Let's assume a 30" x 60" size, double sided:

Metal powder coated frame: $450.00
1x6 cedar: $90
Stain, thinner rags, etc.: $50.00
Routed and painted (Mathews acrylic polyurethane) 1/2" PVC 6" letters, logo elements, and panels: $580.00
Fasteners, misc.: $50.00
Total production cost: $1220.00

Marked up production price with 40% margin: $2033.00
Fabrication costs (my time): $340.00
Installation with permit, secural fee: $570.00

Total price to customer: $2943.00

This is assuming the client is bringing me the art. There would be other ways to do this sign (Two piece routed with internal frame) that would be substantially less expensive and have a similar look.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Some recently completed signs. All of these signs were outsourced with minimal in-house production.

 

[TimToad]

Tim,

I do signs like this all the time. The frame would be built by a local welding shop, then sent over to a paint shop for powder coating. The dimensional elements would be outsourced (routed PVC with acrylic polyurethane finish). I would probably also route the lettering in the bottom dimensional panel. The wood panels are something I can easily handle myself (I have access to two shops, but this could easily be done out of my garage). I would finish the wood with DEFY epoxy-fortified stain. I would assemble the sign and stage it for installation at either my small shop or my installer's somewhat larger shop.

Shipping costs would be minimal because the component dimensional parts could be sent UPS. All the material handling costs for the frame and painting would be handled by the welder (he goes back and forth to the painter all the time). Neither of the two shops I use has any fabrication equipment other than saw-horses and hand tools (like I said, I could easily do this out of my garage, but I would probably assemble the sign at the installers shop).

Let's assume a 30" x 60" size, double sided:

Metal powder coated frame: $450.00
1x6 cedar: $90
Stain, thinner rags, etc.: $50.00
Routed and painted (Mathews acrylic polyurethane) 1/2" PVC 6" letters, logo elements, and panels: $580.00
Fasteners, misc.: $50.00
Total production cost: $1220.00

Marked up production price with 40% margin: $2033.00
Fabrication costs (my time): $340.00
Installation with permit, secural fee: $570.00

Total price to customer: $2943.00

This is assuming the client is bringing me the art. There would be other ways to do this sign (Two piece routed with internal frame) that would be substantially less expensive and have a similar look.

Thanks for the honest and sincere effort. I really appreciate your response.

I should have qualified it better with the actual size, 18.50"x42" and that your involvement physically was limited to what you could do on your Mac at your dining room table and using NO local help and only using wholesale "factory" help as those are the criteria you frequently defend. The client didn't provide any of the artwork or the concept. They just asked for us to design and provide a projecting sign.

Knowing the real size and proportionally scaling your pricing, you're still pretty high compared to the going rate for this type of work in our area and if you couldn't use the local help, the costs would be even higher.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Thanks for the honest and sincere effort. I really appreciate your response.

I should have qualified it better with the actual size, 18.50"x42" and that your involvement physically was limited to what you could do on your Mac at your dining room table and using NO local help and only using wholesale "factory" help as those are the criteria you frequently defend. The client didn't provide any of the artwork or the concept. They just asked for us to design and provide a projecting sign.

Knowing the real size and proportionally scaling your pricing, you're still pretty high compared to the going rate for this type of work in our area and if you couldn't use the local help, the costs would be even higher.

I am certainly glad I am in my area because I do this kind of work all the time. I live in a small metro area, and I have a reputation for design and quality work. The big union shops that do their own fabrication charge considerably more (I know because I owned and operated two of them over the last 30+ years). Sometimes I get beat on price by some of the smaller non-union shops, but my quality is usually heads-up above their efforts and I stand by my prices and quality.

As far as my shop model goes, outsourcing allows me to concentrate on sales and design without getting bogged down in production. To be honest, I have a small shop for light assembly, painting posts and such, vehicle graphics, hand lettering, a circular saw and a jig saw and a few saw-horses. A lot of my work requires final assembly, but a surprising number of jobs come in ready to install. I have two licensed, insured and, most importantly, experienced sub-contractors that do most of my installs (I do enjoy going out once in a while myself). I could easily run my business from my garage (I have), but having a shop makes it easier, and the small monthly expense is worth it.

I have a lot of experience, and know a lot of local craftsmen, all of whom are invaluable. I would not recommend my model for a beginner, but an experienced sign person that knows all the facets of the business could easily set up something along the lines of what I do. Eliminating overhead is the main objective, while still maintaining and in most cases improving quality. I can attest to the fact that the fabricated signs I get from my out-sourcing partners are at least as good and in most cases better than the ones we made. I know my costs went down when I started outsourcing digital printing. We never had a dimensional CAM router, but I have hand routed dozens of signs (with a plunge router and a v-bit - talk about tedious). I can get unfinished routed sign for about the same cost as it used to cost us to buy and inventory the wood and glue up the panels. Everything has changed, and even more so in the last 5 years, and I feel fortunate to not be encumbered by a large shop and be able to take advantage of a new way of doing business.

By the way, I quickly calculated the price of your sign at 18.5" x 42" @ $1546 (my time plus $742.00 production cost). A similar HDU sign with an internal steel frame routed and sandblasted would be around $1350. Installation would be $460.00 with permits. I can't speak to the art other than if the client had an existing logo the layout costs would be minimal.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Goofing around on this site is becoming too much like work! I have been recovering from an ankle injury, and probably just have too much time on my hands. Back in the trenches on Monday!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I am certainly glad I am in my area because I do this kind of work all the time. I live in a small metro area, and I have a reputation for design and quality work. The big union shops that do their own fabrication charge considerably more (I know because I owned and operated two of them over the last 30+ years). Sometimes I get beat on price by some of the smaller non-union shops, but my quality is usually heads-up above their efforts and I stand by my prices and quality.

As far as my shop model goes, outsourcing allows me to concentrate on sales and design without getting bogged down in production. To be honest, I have a small shop for light assembly, painting posts and such, vehicle graphics, hand lettering, a circular saw and a jig saw and a few saw-horses. A lot of my work requires final assembly, but a surprising number of jobs come in ready to install. I have two licensed, insured and, most importantly, experienced sub-contractors that do most of my installs (I do enjoy going out once in a while myself). I could easily run my business from my garage (I have), but having a shop makes it easier, and the small monthly expense is worth it.

I have a lot of experience, and know a lot of local craftsmen, all of whom are invaluable. I would not recommend my model for a beginner, but an experienced sign person that knows all the facets of the business could easily set up something along the lines of what I do. Eliminating overhead is the main objective, while still maintaining and in most cases improving quality. I can attest to the fact that the fabricated signs I get from my out-sourcing partners are at least as good and in most cases better than the ones we made. I know my costs went down when I started outsourcing digital printing. We never had a dimensional CAM router, but I have hand routed dozens of signs (with a plunge router and a v-bit - talk about tedious). I can get unfinished routed sign for about the same cost as it used to cost us to buy and inventory the wood and glue up the panels. Everything has changed, and even more so in the last 5 years, and I feel fortunate to not be encumbered by a large shop and be able to take advantage of a new way of doing business.

By the way, I quickly calculated the price of your sign at 18.5" x 42" @ $1546 (my time plus $742.00 production cost). A similar HDU sign with an internal steel frame routed and sandblasted would be around $1350. Installation would be $460.00 with permits. I can't speak to the art other than if the client had an existing logo the layout costs would be minimal.

Me and you are in very similar boats, and I never heard it put that way.. "I would not recommend my model for a beginner, but an experienced sign person that knows all the facets of the business " but you are 100% correct. I could not do what I do if I didn't know EVERY step of the sign making process. I ran a printer for years yet I outsource all my printing. I try to bring everything to my doorstep as complete as possible so that way all I need to do is finial assembly if needed and (unlike you) install myself. I enjoy installing more than the computer work so I have chosen not to outsource that part. You need to be widely skilled to run a one-man sign show and I'd beg to say most could not do so successfully. Outsourcing has made it possible for one man to "do everything".. and what I (and maybe you) have found is that you can be very financially successful doing this.. having very low overhead and charging as if we had to run all this equipment and have big buildings and trucks.




And what is the self ego-stroking phrase "The love of the craft"... what are we talking about here? "I do it for the love of the craft"... OK, I do it because I make good $$. Besides starting a sign company I also started a computer repair business and was going to stick with whichever one took off and made the better money. I can tell you this, if I wasn't making good money doing signs I'd be doing something else...love of craft or not. Compared to some of the larger sign shops in my area, my designs are light-years better then theirs, I care (probably too much) about the quality of my work and about my customers. Does that qualify for "love of the craft?" "He has good looking signs, very happy customers, but he does it for the $$... therefor he doesn't do it for the love of the craft"

I can tell you this, if the sign business didn't pay as good I'd be exploring different avenues and putting just as much attention, quality and detail in whatever other things I was doing.