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Gino
Premium Subscriber
It's called tweaking. It might not be absolutely perfect, but this machine is willing and open to 'CHANGE' that is good for the whole and not only a select few.
Rather than trying to weaken and constantly trying to wear away at the machine or undermine it.... some of us strive to help and improve it.... like we do everything in our lives.
ddarlak
Go Bills!
removing wholesale pricing from this website in my eyes would be an improvement.
i am not undermining fred, only pointing out the obvious. our industry would be better off with wholesale prices only being known by two people, the ones selling and the ones buying, not the end consumer.
you can't argue with that, and if you agree, then i am not undermining this site, rather, improving it.....
Blazingsun
New Member
So than whats the Difference than?
It is ok for wholesalers to show there Wholesale price's in the open forum... but we shouldn,t speak about pricing or anything that the general puplic shouldn't see..Hmmmm sounds one way to me..
I thought that was the Purpose of having the premuim paid area..? to keep unwanted information away from the customer??
signage
New Member
you are correct that is the reason, it is not the rule though! It is up to each individual weather or not they want to discuss pricing out in the open forum! Most of the premium member do not!
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
I would point out that this was partially addressed and that neither the Sales, Marketing and Pricing forum nor the Business management forum is visible to a non-member or to a member who is not logged in.
I would also point out that most ads I've seen that display wholesale pricing also have both qualifying and file/design creation responsibilities left to the client. So Joe Blow sign buyer won't be in a position to benefit. Joe Blow also has no idea whether he will be getting junk or quality.
CentralSigns
New Member
I'm with Blazing, The public starts comming here and seeing our overpricing at retail, and well be like the business card industry 200 cards for a $5 bill. We'll be $1 a sign if non sign customers see this. Then 90% of the sign businesses that come here, will be gone (belly-up that is ). The cost could be high, just a thought. I have to agree with keeping it in the Premium Section, but that's just my opinion.
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
And if you click on it you find that it goes to nowhere. Interesting though that it doesn't modify your viewpoint that anyone entering those keywords also gets this:
Results 1 - 10 of about 135,000 for wholesale hdu signs.
That's a lot of results for such a specialized service.
Interesting also that one doesn't find any banner ad that appears on Google and that they will find no shortage of published, advertised prices in a large number of those other 135,000 finds.
I can understand your point that, in principle, the public should not have easy access to such information. But the reality is that they do and dimensional signs are selling just as well or better for professional sign companies than they ever have. What you don't see is anyone canceling their subscription to SignCraft because wholesale prices are advertised there ... and I can tell you as a former advertiser that SignCraft and all the other trade journals are read by lots of sign buyers. We spend several hours a day here screening our new members to keep our demographic as high as possible professional sign makers and related fields. We act responsibly and quickly whenever anyone slips through and is reported as not being appropriately qualified to be here.
From my perspective, and first off, I have been in the business of sign making since 1971. That includes some start up time and more than a little bit of bad economic times. Through all that time, I have never presented myself to my clients as bargain priced. I have never been bothered by local low-ballers and have presented that point of view at length here in these forums. So I am not in any particular sympathy with others in the sign business who model their business and sales results on low prices.
Secondly, I happen to be an individual who believes that less is more whether we're talking about the size of government or the amount of rules and intervention I insert into my management of this forum. I don't think there is a single rule or policy here at Signs 101 that involves prohibiting the way anyone runs their business. No I take that back. I do have rules about involving the forum in anything illegal including copyright infringement, software piracy and file sharing. Obviously there are some here who run their businesses with such activity included. Bottom line though, this is an open forum that allows and encourages free speech ... even if it isn't something I would say or agree with. I also believe in free markets. So, DaVinci Sign's choice to run her ad displaying wholesale pricing is her choice and the market decides if it was a good idea or not.
You can call that spin if you like Dave, but it's a statement of principles as far as I'm concerned. What you would have me do would be to take a stand on principle and suffer the loss of revenue from the ad while all the searchers for wholesale HDU signs will simply find whatever they are looking for at the next link. Further, you would have me do this to protect sign companies who are frequented by and cater to price shoppers instead of presenting themselves as a solution provider at prices commensurate with the value they deliver. And in carrying out your ideals, you would have me deprive a member of her right to advertise her products and services in the way she feels is best for her enterprise and I would likely earn her resentment in doing so.
Sometimes principles clash and we have to make hard choices. My opinion is that allowing such advertising is a better choice than prohibiting it.
ddarlak
Go Bills!
the link didn't lead to nowhere, it was a signs101 thread, in some sort of archived form, but fully readable and there.
comparing a trade magazine, that you have to purchase as compared to free online information, again is apples to oranges. you could make this comparision if the ads with the offending prices only appeared in the preimum section. which is where they should be. my customers are not in the habit of purchasing a trade magazine, more likely they will do a free search and find it on signs101.
in the end, you choose to appease the advertiser for your profit rather than what is best for our industry. which is perfectly within your right, it is your sandbox. your stance on the issue is bias, you profit from it.
it is still wrong.
comparing a trade magazine, that you have to purchase as compared to free online information, again is apples to oranges. you could make this comparision if the ads with the offending prices only appeared in the preimum section. which is where they should be. my customers are not in the habit of purchasing a trade magazine, more likely they will do a free search and find it on signs101.
in the end, you choose to appease the advertiser for your profit rather than what is best for our industry. which is perfectly within your right, it is your sandbox. your stance on the issue is bias, you profit from it.
it is still wrong.
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
That's neither here nor there but this is what I see:
Anyone can get a free subscription to Sign Business, Sign Builder or Signs of the Times magazines. All four of the trades provide for online viewing and advertiser searches.
You also ignore the Google results in your argument which is perhaps the most damaging to your position. Selected links from the first two pages of the Google results:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5988
http://wholesalesignblast.com/Pricing.htm
http://www.1st-imps.com/
Hmmmm and I thought I responded honestly and fairly as to my reasons for it. It has nothing to do with appeasement and to use such terms is bias in its purest form on your part. As to who profits from it ... every member here hopefully profits from the features and values provided by Signs 101, which only are there because of advertisers and subscribers.
But I do thank you for providing such unbiased clarity on all things ethical and moral.
The Sign Dude
New Member
B Snyder
New Member
Oh, the drama. If you don't want to sell your signs for $1 then don't do it. I couldn't give a rat's ass if my customer knew my costs. Every one of them knows it costs $.25 to make a cup of coffee but they're paying $3 a cup at Starbucks. I really don't think there is anything to worry about when folks are happy to buy 16 ounces of bottled water for $1.50. Relax, the sky isn't falling.
Flame
New Member
Not so. I've been working deals with companies for over 100 banners, 40,000 stickers etc. $5K+ print em and ship em jobs... and they want to know ALL costs, and they shop around. And I lost a $18K job that would've MADE my day/month.... to a wholesale outfit who decided in this case it'd be "ok" to sell to the public.
Question is how did they FIND that company? Well, look up "wholesale stickers" on google, or "wholesale signs", and such keywords DO bring customers to this site more than you'd think. They browse around for 5 minutes... think they know the sign industry... and bam, your sale just got twice as hard to pitch.
This pretty well mostly just applies to basic printed items, not design work. But still... wholesale prices to the public... is not a good idea. Hide them #'s... hide em! lol. I don't think Fred should ban anyone from posting the prices up, but personally I know I wouldn't buy from a wholesale outfit putting their prices public, and I know others would do the same so it's a good suggestion to the owner of such ads.... to perhaps tweak the ad just a little.
Just a suggestion. Sorry if that was a bit long winded everyone.
B Snyder
New Member
You're right. The sky is falling. Godspeed.
My argument was that I don't care if the public knows my costs. You did not lose those jobs because the potential client knew your costs. You lost them because a wholesaler did not respect their resellers and sold directly to the public. That is what you wrote, right?
My argument was that I don't care if the public knows my costs. You did not lose those jobs because the potential client knew your costs. You lost them because a wholesaler did not respect their resellers and sold directly to the public. That is what you wrote, right?
iSign
New Member
That's a subjective opinion, and most opinions around here are irrelevant. We tried democracy & it failed.
Now we have a forum that is what it is, but what it ain't is it ain't up for discussion. After putting the better part of a year into paving the way for user participation in decision making around here, not enough users givaphuq... so I laugh a long bitter knowing laugh at their folly in launching foolhardy uneducated opinions about change.
Change was possible. Now it ain't. Save your breath. Go topple a small government instead...
southpawP8NTR
New Member
I had a RETAIL price request a couple of months ago just to double check my numbers. It ruffled some feathers and this is all hypocritical if you ask me, 2 cents.
There is also something that happens alot here, which is when someone asks for a specialized supplier. If it is not a merchant member that someone recommends it's frowned upon. Is this not an open forum? If you have a good reliable lead that can help benefit a community member, then why not throw it out there?
I basically come to this site for one reason and that's to see other peoples work. Alot of talented people are here on these boards.
There is also something that happens alot here, which is when someone asks for a specialized supplier. If it is not a merchant member that someone recommends it's frowned upon. Is this not an open forum? If you have a good reliable lead that can help benefit a community member, then why not throw it out there?
I basically come to this site for one reason and that's to see other peoples work. Alot of talented people are here on these boards.
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Techman
New Member
Why is it that some shops make lots of money while a few others scratch and cling to the edge of failure?
Why is it some comes from behind while others remain static?
Why is it one can be nearly wiped out then suddenly jump ahead?
We all have the same resources. We all have about the same economic challenges. We all deal with low balls.
What is different between those who make a living and those who complain about some small details such as a price on a web ad?
First. One lives the victim lifestyle and acts and thinks as a victim.
He looks for blame fixing and reasons why he lost a job. He worries about micro and avoid the macro.
The other acts and thinks like a victor. He takes one last look at the lost job and moves on to the next completed project. She looks for reasons why the next job will be his. When short on work he is out innovating and networking. He sets big goals and looks for ways to meet those goals. She is so busy she doesn't have time to worry about micro details that mean nothing in the long run.
Develop your own marketing plan and work it till it bleeds. Never mind all those others who do not buy from ya. If they do not fit the demographics then move on to one that does.
Why is it some comes from behind while others remain static?
Why is it one can be nearly wiped out then suddenly jump ahead?
We all have the same resources. We all have about the same economic challenges. We all deal with low balls.
What is different between those who make a living and those who complain about some small details such as a price on a web ad?
First. One lives the victim lifestyle and acts and thinks as a victim.
He looks for blame fixing and reasons why he lost a job. He worries about micro and avoid the macro.
The other acts and thinks like a victor. He takes one last look at the lost job and moves on to the next completed project. She looks for reasons why the next job will be his. When short on work he is out innovating and networking. He sets big goals and looks for ways to meet those goals. She is so busy she doesn't have time to worry about micro details that mean nothing in the long run.
Develop your own marketing plan and work it till it bleeds. Never mind all those others who do not buy from ya. If they do not fit the demographics then move on to one that does.
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
That's totally incorrect and it sounds like you are confusing referrals by members to a supplier they would recommend with members who aren't merchant subscribers here promoting themselves as suppliers. The first we encourage ... the second is a source of aggravation and not allowed.
I hope you can see the difference.
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
I couldn't agree more. To paraphrase an old proverb: If you live by price ... you die by price. If that ad, other ads like it, wherever they may be found, hurts your business, then I think you just don't get it and are probably down in the trenches fighting for the wrong clients. If you are dropping your prices just to get an average job then you don't understand that the only valid reason, IMO, for discounting is for volume orders where you achieve a savings by economy of scale or by removing something from the job that saves you time or materials.
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