S50675 - Pantone Colors not matching. Cyan especially

[FactorDesign]

So, are you saying; "The machine is still not delivering the proper amount of cyan."? If so, and you feel confident that is the case, your next step is to acquire the tools to re-calibrate or hire someone to visit and perform the task for you.

I can offer the fact that I operated two of those machines side-by-side in a varied hot, cold, dry, humid environment for over two years and they both did not drift whatsoever from the day they were installed and the two shared the same profiles for color-critical work.

I suspect the problem is both lack of true color management and workflow management which I will cover in another post but that is not to say your machine doesn't need to be calibrated, it may still. You might also need to refine the Onyx Pantone lookup table for your specific blue callouts.

I do not know with 100% certainty that it is the machine, and not the material. If you look at previous posts, printing the same file, with the same profile, on a different material, the saturation of the Cyan either matches the expected Pantone color, or in the case of the Oracal media, appears slightly over-saturated. Unless I am totally missing something, I do not see how there could be such a drastic difference between 2 medias, and only in relation to one ink color, unless there was something going on with ink adhesion/absorption. It would make no sense for the printer to physically change how much cyan is being used on the different medias, because the printer itself does not know that the media has changed.

Then the confusion becomes that I have tested 3 separate rolls of 3M IJ180c V3, from different lot numbers. I could see having one bad roll, or a few bad rolls from the same lot, but 3 from 3 different lots?

 

[ColorCrest]

I think you've said you are reprinting because of damage to the originals. Do you actually have a piece of damaged blue material to compare with current prints? (I don't understand why you bothered testing a banner popup media and Oracal 3651.)

 

[FactorDesign]

I think you've said you are reprinting because of damage to the originals. Do you actually have a piece of damaged blue material to compare with current prints? (I don't understand why you bothered testing a banner popup media and Oracal 3651.)

Yes. The blue background in the photos IS the column with the original print on it. I will reattach it here. As you can see, it is over-saturated slightly, and that is printed at 95% density of 298C, so with the 298C printed at 100% (the 2 swatches on the left) being so dramatically different, and the other 2 switches on the right being fairly close, and all printed with the same profile.
I bothered testing the Pop-Up banner media and the Oracal media because I was starting to think it might just be a bad roll of IJ180C v3 causing the problems. Since they both print with correct, or even over-saturated colors, using the same profile as the 3M media, this would lead me to believe that the 3M media is the issue, but testing 3 separate rolls of 3M media makes me think it is either something else, or there has been a deliberate change in the 3M media or the Epson cyan ink that makes the two no longer work as they did previously.

 

[P Wagner]

Hi ColorCrest,

I would like to have a quick chat. As you are not allowing PMs, can I ask that you ping me?

P. Wagner

 

[papabud]

when you start using different materials. you run into different white points and how each handles ink .
so unless you profile each material on its own you will almost always get a different color.
could be a ink limit setting in onyx also that is not allowing you to use enough ink to build a color.

 

[FactorDesign]

when you start using different materials. you run into different white points and how each handles ink .
so unless you profile each material on its own you will almost always get a different color.
could be a ink limit setting in onyx also that is not allowing you to use enough ink to build a color.

I understand that different profiles for different medias are required.
I normally would not print a pop-up banner with the 3M profile. It was only done to see if it was an issue with the profile, or an issue with the media. (software vs physical issue)
The original wrapped column printed about a month ago was on 3M, with identical print settings as to what the sample prints use. In the picture, you can see that it is very different than the results I am getting now.

 

[FactorDesign]

Just touching base on this issue. Still not resolved. Rep from Grimco reached out to 3M and Epson and they had no solution. We switched to an Avery wrap media for one job and the colors were perfect, but the installers didn't like it as much (too low tack). Just had an issue yesterday with a neutral gray where 4 panels 36"x66" were printed at the same time.One had banding, and one had a slightly warm color shift. The inconsistency of this printer is really getting to me.

 

[signman315]

spot color replacement issue in ONYX?

 

[ColorCrest]

Just touching base on this issue. Still not resolved. Rep from Grimco reached out to 3M and Epson and they had no solution. We switched to an Avery wrap media for one job and the colors were perfect, but the installers didn't like it as much (too low tack). Just had an issue yesterday with a neutral gray where 4 panels 36"x66" were printed at the same time.One had banding, and one had a slightly warm color shift. The inconsistency of this printer is really getting to me.

Great that you're posting a followup. Sorry you're still having trouble.

After 4 months now you should have imaged and collected Onyx color control prints from all your different print modes and media. What are they telling you?

If the answer isn't crystal clear, you might seriously look into training for workflow and color management and, I'm afraid at this point, machine maintenance also.

Best of luck.

 

[FactorDesign]

Great that you're posting a followup. Sorry you're still having trouble.

After 4 months now you should have imaged and collected Onyx color control prints from all your different print modes and media. What are they telling you?

If the answer isn't crystal clear, you might seriously look into training for workflow and color management and, I'm afraid at this point, machine maintenance also.

Best of luck.

Thanks ColorCrest.
Sadly I have to work with the tools provided to me (AKA, not much) - I've requested a spectrophotometer more than once, but can't seem to get any traction on that front, so I'm dealing with either canned profiles, or ones that were set up when the machine was first installed before I was hired. I follow a bi-weekly cleaning program outlined by the previous production manager. We don't have the highest print volume, but the machine doesn't sit idle either.

What gets me is that it will go from printing wonderfully to having random banding or color shifts in the middle of a print job, or the length of the print will suddenly be off. (most recent example, had a 36 inch print sample come out at 35.5 inches, which when scaled to full print size would be a pretty drastic change. If the color shifts or print length issues were consistent and could be reliably adjusted for I feel like I could figure that out. When it just happens randomly and infrequently, I'm left scratching my head.

As to the specific issue that started this thread, we narrowed it down to pantone/cmyk values that are in the range of pure cyan at 70% or less density on 3M IJ180c v3 print media. Greater density and they appear fine. Change media and they appear fine. This has been tested across multiple rolls of 3M IJ180c V3 media from multiple suppliers (grimco and fellers).
My solution was to switch to an Avery media which printed without issue, but the installers did not like working with it as much due to the lower initial tack.