Signs 101 Business Model

[flisk]

I realize you're just trying to be helpful but you're armchair quarterbacking at this point with all over the board prices that only serve to confuse.

We used to have hosted service for 14.95 a month and outgrew it ... not because of bandwidth or disk space but because of the ability to handle the kind of server load we generate. We went from there to an entry level dedicated server at EV-1 on the advice of Barry at Printingdigital.net. As the site continued to grow, we upgraded our server to the current dual xeon last year. It's a 3.2 gHz with 4 GB RAM and an upgraded hard drive and 100 MBS uplink. The base price is $289 but with upgrades and cPanel it is $389 a month.

The decisions to make each of these moves were done in consultation with individuals who were experienced in such matters. Each move was harder than the last with the last time taking three man days followed by an intensive week of tracking down bugs and repairing or reloading code and databases.

So to come along at this point and make a statement like this is a piece of cake and you can run this site on a $15 a month hosted plan means little more than "I coulda done it cheaper and better" even though you didn't and couldn't. It is what it is and I wouldn't go through another move to cut my server costs in half. It's just too much work.

I'm sorry you feel that way about the info I gave. I tried to give it in specifics to cut back on any confusion, what I gave was never meant to confuse anyone.

As for being an "armchair quarterback".. that's what forums make everyone out to be, especially in the realm of posing a question and asking for opinions (which you did in the very first post).

I'm not saying "I coulda done it cheaper and better", not by any means, so please do not try to claim that I am. I simply listed the pricing out there because that is what I have seen and those are the prices that I pay for my own sites. Hell, if I was to claim that I could do it "cheaper and better", I'd not be a member of these forums, instead I'd have my own.

I have nothing at all to gain by you switching to a new server, just offering up an observed price based on my own website experience.

If you hear that someone out there is being charged $95.00 for an 18"x24" single sided, one color, coro, would you not at least make an attempt to let them know they are probably not getting the best deal out there even if you are not the one that will be making the coro for them?

 

[iSign]

I simply listed the pricing out there because that is what I have seen and those are the prices that I pay for my own sites.

If you hear that someone out there is being charged $95.00 for an 18"x24" single sided, one color, coro, would you not at least make an attempt to let them know they are probably not getting the best deal...

therein lies the crux of the biscuit,

Fred ain't using CORO! ...we got quality, reliability and durability!

...while comments were solicited... the topic never was about costs... but more about value... which means different things to different people, just like with signs... so finding out what people value most, and understanding that there are costs to be paid for (not cut, at the expense of value)

For the record, I also respect that you are trying to help here Brian... so I'm not quaetioning that at all.. just throwing down another opinion among the other 200

 

[Pat Whatley]

It isn't structured to protect and promote advertisers.

Just ask any of the merchants that have gotten bashed in the last couple about that. :Big Laugh

 

[mark in tx]

Fred,
May I ask why you feel the need to change the business model here?


# Removal of Signs 101 from search engine indexing

Good idea

# Unregistered members would not be able to view any posts or pictures

How about restrict them to the newbie section, general topics, and classified sections only?


Registered members would be subject to membership dues to be determined but probably $50 to $100 per year with shorter terms available to the unsure

Many of us are cheap bastards.
How about a one time fee of 10 bucks to access the no-holds barred forums?
How about a minimum number of posts, maybe 35 or 50 to get out of the newbie forums?

You have a tough balancing act here, providing a quality resource to the sign community that makes everyone happy.

Well, not everyone will be happy.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred,
May I ask why you feel the need to change the business model here?

I don't. I do however feel that there would be some compelling benefits but only if members here agreed. See Post #191.

# Removal of Signs 101 from search engine indexing

Good idea

No, bad idea. Flow of new members would dwindle without the exposure.

# Unregistered members would not be able to view any posts or pictures

How about restrict them to the newbie section, general topics, and classified sections only?

The result of that would be less would see the value in joining.


Registered members would be subject to membership dues to be determined but probably $50 to $100 per year with shorter terms available to the unsure

Many of us are cheap bastards.
How about a one time fee of 10 bucks to access the no-holds barred forums?
How about a minimum number of posts, maybe 35 or 50 to get out of the newbie forums?

Look for changes in the coming weeks, using our current business model, which will move certain forums and portal sections so that they are only viewable by CMs, MMs and Admins. Posts made in these areas will be inaccessible to non-members and regular members even if they happen to show up in a Google search.

You have a tough balancing act here, providing a quality resource to the sign community that makes everyone happy.

Well, not everyone will be happy.

That's a given.

..

 

[SignTech]

""Look for changes in the coming weeks, using our current business model, which will move certain forums and portal sections so that they are only viewable by CMs, MMs and Admins. Posts made in these areas will be inaccessible to non-members and regular members even if they happen to show up in a Google search.""

Exactly .......... brilliant.

 

[Samm]

Yes. But I think dues in the form of affordability...if that makes sense, sort of like bronze, silver, gold, platinum deals. Unfortunately I myself am only in a position for bronze most of the time!

 

[cdiesel]

You know what.. I'm all over the place. I guess I'm easily convinced by other people's points. At first I was all for making it a pay site.. But I'm afraid we'd lose a lot of new members, many of which turn out to contribute a great deal to the site.
I think our main problem here lies with the huge amount of newbies buying cheap equipment, trying to take business from other established companies. Many of the members here treat the newbies harshly (maybe rightly so) for trying to take food off of our tables. They are here looking for help.
I'm of the train of thought that as people become more educated they become "good" competition. We will always have competition, and it's a lot easier to compete when everyone's on a level playing field.

 

[Jamie Christy]

I am in

 

[curlyt]

IMHO,
Your advertisers are probably seeing a lot more click-thru traffic now than they would if you begin charging an annual membership. I am just assuming that, when charging, the more elite group would be joining, or those with money to burn. Those folks aren't necessarily going to see an ad and say oh I wonder who they are or what they do, and click-through, because most of your membership will already know and have their web sites bookmarked. Sure less revenue from ads for you, less traffic for them. I think keeping it like it is, works best for everyone.

Advertisers, Signwriters, and those just curious. I would set it so that non-registered folks could not post(read? yes) or look at photos..or is that already in effect?

It's a great forum and I have learned a lot since last year when I began my business. Though I had worked for a several years with another company as a designer, I caught the bug, and started my own biz and the very capable people on this forum don't even realize how much they have helped me. I hope others who come here freely feel the same way now and in the future.

I don't think most people are going to spend that much to join a forum, now if you had some other benefits that might be a different story.
Just my 2.

Carl T.

 

[Fred Weiss]

IMHO,
Your advertisers are probably seeing a lot more click-thru traffic now than they would if you begin charging an annual membership. I am just assuming that, when charging, the more elite group would be joining, or those with money to burn. Those folks aren't necessarily going to see an ad and say oh I wonder who they are or what they do, and click-through, because most of your membership will already know and have their web sites bookmarked. Sure less revenue from ads for you, less traffic for them. I think keeping it like it is, works best for everyone.

The changes being made should have a minimal impact on new and existing members as well as advertisers. It will be a definite improvement for many.

Advertisers, Signwriters, and those just curious. I would set it so that non-registered folks could not post(read? yes) or look at photos..or is that already in effect?

Your description is pretty much the way it has been setup for several years now.

It's a great forum and I have learned a lot since last year when I began my business. Though I had worked for a several years with another company as a designer, I caught the bug, and started my own biz and the very capable people on this forum don't even realize how much they have helped me. I hope others who come here freely feel the same way now and in the future.

So do I.

I don't think most people are going to spend that much to join a forum, now if you had some other benefits that might be a different story.
Just my 2.

Carl T.

Neither do I but there will be benefits that some will find enough value in to take out a subscription. If not, most of the existing forums will still be there so traffic and value will still remain high. Taking out a subscription will give one access to a few forums that regular membership will not such as logo design, layout and design, and sales, marketing and pricing. The subscription will also give one more archives to search and more members who are willing to share information under a protective umbrella than they are willing to share in an open forum.

We also hope to have a continuing flow of new tutorials and articles appearing in the premium forums.

At any rate, premium subscriptions are an optional extra. We are not expecting to see any significant loss of free membership numbers or activity, but we are expecting to have more subscribing members.

 

[curlyt]

The changes being made should have a minimal impact on new and existing members as well as advertisers. It will be a definite improvement for many.

After reading the thread, I understand that now. Looks all good to me!

Your description is pretty much the way it has been setup for several years now.

I wasn't sure when I was writing, I couldn't remember if I had to register or not, but was pretty sure I did.

Taking out a subscription will give one access to a few forums that regular membership will not such as logo design, layout and design, and sales, marketing and pricing. The subscription will also give one more archives to search and more members who are willing to share information under a protective umbrella than they are willing to share in an open forum.

I see...I think it works too, so more power to ya.

 

[sandblast_dude]

Hmmm.

Would I get my own paypal button on my sig that links to my account to pay for advice?

Maybe I don't much matter to people on this forumn but please know that I do think this is a cool site. So cool that I recommend all kinds of sign companies that I speak with join Signs101.com for the vast information and expert advice.

Unless something like Westcoast Sign Guy proposed existed, why exactly would I remain a member? I am not going to lose money helping others.
I answer questions pertaining to sanblasting and help companies out..., I hope. I would have definitely NOT joined in the first place if I had to pay money.
So S101 would grow by word of mouth alone and get money from members only? Is that what is being considered? Sounds boring. (This really seems like an attitude of...,"Well, I am happy with the friends I have right this minute and I don't care if I ever make another one. I am going to go hide with my friends and never look back.)
I thought this was a site where everybody helps one another for no other reason than because you have been there before, know the answer, and want to prevent others from making the same stupid mistake some of us might have.

I, myself, don't really get much "help" from Signs101...I do the helping in one forumn.
Now, I'll have to possibly pay to help people with their sandblast problems or questions? I think not. I will not be on board...
Thats Ok, though, whatever Signs101 wants to do is fine.
After all this is a "sign" forumn and not a "sandblasting" forumn

 

[LaserImage]

I am a member of several types of forums - sandcarving, engraving, signs, etc. Only one of them is a subscription forum, the engraving forum, and I gladly pay the price for that one. My main focus is on the engraving part of my business so it is very much worth it for me. The cost is pretty low, $36.00 per year ($3.00 per month if you look at it that way) so it's pretty easy to justify. I think I learned enough in the first week on that forum to pay my subscription for several years.
All that said - I probably wouldn't pay for this forum because I don't do that much sign/vinyl work and couldn't justify the cost. If I can just browse around free then I would be happy with that.

Gary

 

[skyhigh]

Would you prefer to pay membership dues for a smaller, higher quality forum or leave things as they are?

I don't keep up with the forum as much as I'd like, and I haven't read hardly any of these post, but my observations is you've hit somewhere in the middle Fred?

1) Am I correct, that there are only a few forum's that a CM only can read?
2) Visitors, whether registered or not can still read all the regular forum's (cept the few CM only ones)?
3) We still have open pricing, such as the "Screen Printing" thread you posted up at one time, and the "Subbing Out" thread that appeared today? So the CM pricing threads are not seen, but it still takes place?
4) Electrical Signage is a CM only forum, along with sandblasting? Sandblast dude had some good points, as he is a "helper" and not a helpee. I would say that hurts, although I can't blame him for not paying, ONLY to give out good advice.

Yesterday, we had a thread going, reguarding acrylic faces (what material, price ect.), that got bumped into the CM forum, even though the OP was not a CM, nor most of the responders to that thread. Not really sure what criteria forced it to the PAID section....but I would have to wonder why the "Subbing Out" thread wasn't moved also, seeing it deals with pricing (my biggest gripe).

I sure don't begrudge you for the changes you've made Fred. This is your BUSINESS and you should be compensated, probably more than you are. That being said, the only improvement I see, is to your bottom line, not the protection of the sign industry.

At last count, I got 55 MM, and I've noticed quite a few more CM while reading the forum. I realize this isn't making you rich, but hope its enough to keep your interest in maintaining the site. (your "bottom line" needed improving)

As in any family, there will be disagreements or things they would like different, albeit I still feel this is a wonderful site, and a great value. You and Stacy do a wonderful job.

I hope you take no offense to my questions and observations, as none was intended.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Sandblast Dude, we certainly appreciate all the folks you send our way but I think you may have picked up an incorrect conclusion. Signs 101 is doing some remodeling, much of which has to do with enhancing what is offered to paid subscription members. All the benefits you describe in your post are and will remain part of our continuing open forums for which there is no payment required.

Frankly, I've been scratching my head quite a bit at how this has been misinterpreted and misconstrued by more than a few people and it's wearing very thin. This site has always offered free (for what it's worth) help and advice and continues to do so in much the same form as it always has. What has changed is that for more candid, private, in depth and better organized information in the forum of discussion, articles and tutorials, each member has the option to subscribe to that portion of Signs 101.

That hardly describes a pay site. All that is being done is to offer access to more and better information if you find it of enough value to you to pay a subscription fee. I know of nowhere that it is written that I or anyone else should do what is necessary to run a high traffic forum and information resource like Signs 101 without receiving some compensation in return.

Let me simplify it for you. If you. or any member here, is an individual who pays for Sign Craft magazine (or any other trade journal) or who lays out money to attend seminars, workshops and sign expos ... then you should and will be happy and pleased with a premium subscription. If that is not your approach to improving your skills in this profession, then we think you will be pleased with our open forums that remain free.

The choice is yours. We are simply offering a choice.

 

[ProWraps™]

Sandblast Dude, we certainly appreciate all the folks you send our way but I think you may have picked up an incorrect conclusion. Signs 101 is doing some remodeling, much of which has to do with enhancing what is offered to paid subscription members. All the benefits you describe in your post are and will remain part of our continuing open forums for which there is no payment required.

Frankly, I've been scratching my head quite a bit at how this has been misinterpreted and misconstrued by more than a few people and it's wearing very thin. This site has always offered free (for what it's worth) help and advice and continues to do so in much the same form as it always has. What has changed is that for more candid, private, in depth and better organized information in the forum of discussion, articles and tutorials, each member has the option to subscribe to that portion of Signs 101.

That hardly describes a pay site. All that is being done is to offer access to more and better information if you find it of enough value to you to pay a subscription fee. I know of nowhere that it is written that I or anyone else should do what is necessary to run a high traffic forum and information resource like Signs 101 without receiving some compensation in return.

Let me simplify it for you. If you. or any member here, is an individual who pays for Sign Craft magazine (or any other trade journal) or who lays out money to attend seminars, workshops and sign expos ... then you should and will be happy and pleased with a premium subscription. If that is not your approach to improving your skills in this profession, then we think you will be pleased with our open forums that remain free.

The choice is yours. We are simply offering a choice.

you know i think the problem is inherent. offer people a choice, and they become idiots. tell them what to do, and they blindly follow.

such is the world.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I don't keep up with the forum as much as I'd like, and I haven't read hardly any of these post, but my observations is you've hit somewhere in the middle Fred?

1) Am I correct, that there are only a few forum's that a CM only can read?
2) Visitors, whether registered or not can still read all the regular forum's (cept the few CM only ones)?
3) We still have open pricing, such as the "Screen Printing" thread you posted up at one time, and the "Subbing Out" thread that appeared today? So the CM pricing threads are not seen, but it still takes place?
4) Electrical Signage is a CM only forum, along with sandblasting? Sandblast dude had some good points, as he is a "helper" and not a helpee. I would say that hurts, although I can't blame him for not paying, ONLY to give out good advice.

Yesterday, we had a thread going, reguarding acrylic faces (what material, price ect.), that got bumped into the CM forum, even though the OP was not a CM, nor most of the responders to that thread. Not really sure what criteria forced it to the PAID section....but I would have to wonder why the "Subbing Out" thread wasn't moved also, seeing it deals with pricing (my biggest gripe).

I sure don't begrudge you for the changes you've made Fred. This is your BUSINESS and you should be compensated, probably more than you are. That being said, the only improvement I see, is to your bottom line, not the protection of the sign industry.

At last count, I got 55 MM, and I've noticed quite a few more CM while reading the forum. I realize this isn't making you rich, but hope its enough to keep your interest in maintaining the site. (your "bottom line" needed improving)

As in any family, there will be disagreements or things they would like different, albeit I still feel this is a wonderful site, and a great value. You and Stacy do a wonderful job.

I hope you take no offense to my questions and observations, as none was intended.

No offense taken at all.

Let's clear up a couple of your points.

1. The Sandblast Forum was simply combined with a couple of other specialties and is now called the Dimensional Sign Forum. There is both an open and a premium forum for this category.

2. There was a thread that was moved, by me by mistake, to Electrical Signs (Premium). It should have been moved to the open forum of that category. I was in a hurry at the time and clicked the wrong selection. That thread is currently in the open forum.

3. The remodeling of the open forums resulted in only four forums being removed. They are Layout & Design, Logo Design, Tips & Tricks, and Sales, Marketing and Pricing. Everything else was either left alone or had a duplicate premium version also created. I am of the very strong opinion that these four forums are of a nature that the information provided in them deserves a shield of privacy. I am also of the very strong opinion that anyone who misses those forums should have no problem either buying access to them or earning access to them. Their value and ROI is so high that they're not difficult to cost justify.

4. The removal of open access to the Classified Ad forums was not done out of profit motive. It was an issue of abuse.

Any member is free to ask for opinions on a layout or a price in the open forums. We're simply not going to provide a forum category for the purpose. What any member should bear in mind is that what they are doing is exposing their design or their pricing strategy to all kinds of eyes they might not realize are looking. Signs 101 currently sees about 700 unique members a day logging on. It also see about 1,500 unique, unregistered visitors each day.

Showing your layouts or asking about pricing in the open forum is like walking out onto a main street in your city or town and asking opinions of every passerby. I personally think doing so is dumb and will come back to bite many in the ass ... but I'm not going to say no one can do it. But at the same time I'm also not going to make it easy and organized so anyone can find the information by just browsing to it.

 

[skyhigh]

Thank you for the time you took to reply. I'm sure things will smooth out soon.

 

[sandblast_dude]

you know i think the problem is inherent. offer people a choice, and they become idiots. tell them what to do, and they blindly follow.

such is the world.

I am sorry you think I am an idiot, tecdady...You are incorrect. I'll remember your comment though.

Fred,
How about this...
I didn't mean to ruffle feathers and cause tension.
It was not 100% clear to me what was going to happen and frankly, still isn't.

Doesn't matter though. I'll tell you what, despite techdady...I'll continue helping people on this forumn with their sandblast related questions until I am asked for a credit card number.
And if I am never asked, I will continue to help...