Signs 101 Business Model

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When you look at how this thread is heading with the "he said she said"... Would I pay to participate. erm... Sorry no.

 

[Flame]

unless i was selling stupid flame vector creations for $79.95.

maybe if the guy wasnt such a DICK to me and others when we were newbs,

1. The flames are not vectors.

2. Feel free to look at my first threads on this forum and look how I was treated. Sometimes learning takes some pain.

3. How does my attitude affect the quality of my product?

4. Feel free to dig up and post anything I've said to you. I don't go out of my way to be mean to people. I am not a guy who has a chip out of his shoulder or is out to attack newbies. I've been there, done that, and the days of using windex on a 2' poorly cut out, red on black "sticker" is still fresh in my memory. If you think I've gone out of my way to attack newbies, sorry. It's just your opinion.

 

[kgirl]

How irritating.......how about I douse him fuel Fred.......you throw the match?

 

[Fred Weiss]

ohhhhh flic my Bic kgirl!!!

 

[flisk]

I've chosen not to vote. I'm on the fence about it. Here is why:

Personally I could care less about the content. If there is some boob causing an uproar, simply excersize your ability to ignore the post and don't post a reply for perpetuating it, then don't go back and keep reading it if you don't want to get all worked up about it.

On a side note, I believe there should be a general list of forum rules. Most forums have em. Simply put, if anyone can't adhear to em, give em the boot, no questions asked.

Now with that said,

I'd be for a monthly fee if the forums were more stable. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I come here only to get a 404 error or a post topic will not open, or it takes a good 2 or 3 minutes for that topic to open. It cannot be the amount of "pictures" attached to said post, nor can it have anything to do with "off site" picture links. Some days a post with heavy photos in it (any of the Classroom Assignment posts) will load within seconds, other days a post with 2 sentences and no replies will take 3 minutes to load.

I have often times considered paying up to become a Merchant Member with my website business to offer, but to be frank, that aspect of my business is just not as planned out as it needs to be in order for me to buckle down and offer it here. It's something that I challenge myself in having the time enough to do.

However, I do feel that making the forums a pay only site will reduce it's luster down to a select few and will more than likely turn off new potential members. Unless it is specifically targeted to the Sign Makers as an industry. Despite what everyone wants to think, this is currently not the case. Anyone and everyone on the internet can get here. It may be set up for discussions pertaining to sign making and that may be what all of us actually do here, but let's face it, these forums are accessible to anyone.

I'd be curious to know if it did go to a pay plan, would any of that money go to advertise the forums so that it could gain new sign-makers as members? Fred, would you take out an ad in Sign Craft magazine? Or in Sign-of-the-Times magazine? Something would have to be done to keep fresh blood coming in, and things would most certainly need to be "spiffied" up to attract members who would find value in paying to become a member. You can't simply say; "we have a site that talks about sign-making, pay us to become an active member so you can read all the useful information on here."

Lots has been said already, and I'm sure more will be said, but this is just my little peek at how I see things.

 

[Border]

What about having a Donation button on this site?
"If you have found this site helpful your donations would be greatly appreciated" or something like that?

Accept Paypal or credit cards for the donations. There's been a few times when I would have glady thrown a 10 spot to the site for useful tips. Sometimes it's hard to fork out $50 in one shot for lots of people but a small donation would be no problem to coax from time to time.

Of course not everyone is gonna do it but I don't see how it could hurt to try it, and you certainly deserve compensation for keeping this beast alive.

I realize there are many who want to just sponge everything they can for free, start a few wars and then not give a rat's ass if it's all gone but I'd like to think there are also plenty that would happily throw a few bucks out to help support the site when they gain useful info from it.

I haven't read through every single post so if this was already brought up, sorry, I missed it.

Fred, hats off to you for keeping your cool as well as you do. I probably would have pulled the plug on this if i were in your shoes after some of the crap I've been reading here, and I'm sure you are also getting it from other angles too, in PMs and email.

Darlak, did you really go and register Signs201.com?? That's pretty pathetic if you did that. If you're planning to launch your own forum, you could at least try something original. I don't understand your line of thinking on that one at all.

If anyone's worried about being found here through searches then use your brain a little when you post stuff or create usernames. It's the internet for crying out loud.

Time for another

TGIF!

 

[Fred Weiss]

Frisk ... sorry to hear about your problems with site stability. Perhaps a report of them at the time and with particulars would help us to track some of these issues down.

This thread, however, has made me feel like I'm present at the tower of babel at the moment of the creation of different languages. The premise was the setting out of two business models for comparison since there were a number of complaints that related to the current model. The benefits and drawbacks were open to discussion.

Many have replied in ways that stray far from that discussion. Probably my fault for not communicating in a better way.

 

[flisk]

Personally I think the site's business model is fine as is. But since I'm not a "paying member" nor am I the one paying the bills (which by the way cannot entail a massive amount becuase it only takes at most, what, $15.00 a month to have it hosted? Now you choosing to pay yourself for your time is another entity all unto itself, but I'm referring to the physical expense of the server).

In the future I'll be sure to make a post of site stability. I had just figured it was something everyone experienced because I've seen a few posts over the past months talking about it..

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Ilike the way it is
... hopes when I start making a little more to be a payed member anyway

likes the freedom in here ...and thinks thats the reason this site is so popular ..

as far as referance on google ... well if your... honest ... way would it bother you .... people have found me because of..... even a person that I've not talked to in over 30 years

git r dun

 

[SignTech]

Ilike the way it is
... hopes when I start making a little more to be a payed member anyway

likes the freedom in here ...and thinks thats the reason this site is so popular ..

as far as referance on google ... well if your... honest ... way would it bother you .... people have found me because of..... even a person that I've not talked to in over 30 years

git r dun

Craig you have some good points. Honesty is not the issue. At least not mine. Sometimes we discuss sensitive issues on here. Pricing, product issues (good and bad) even customer problems. Maybe we should just have a Discussion Sensitive area that is not viewable to non-members. Different from NHB section.

Fred .......... you communicate just fine ............ so you had a human moment today and got frustrated .......... a little. Don't we all ............

 

[Fred Weiss]

What about having a Donation button on this site?
"If you have found this site helpful your donations would be greatly appreciated" or something like that?

Accept Paypal or credit cards for the donations. There's been a few times when I would have glady thrown a 10 spot to the site for useful tips. Sometimes it's hard to fork out $50 in one shot for lots of people but a small donation would be no problem to coax from time to time.

Of course not everyone is gonna do it but I don't see how it could hurt to try it, and you certainly deserve compensation for keeping this beast alive.

Thanks for the suggestion. What you and a number of others have failed to understand is that this was never about any current need for money. The site makes a small profit.

What it was about was what the options are and what each would mean to the way things would work and be funded. In short, do members prefer a setup where advertisers pay the bills and members get a free ride but have to put up with the disadvantages of the occasional newbie and have to take reasonable precautions so the occasional customer doesn't find them on Google saying nasty things about them or do members feel they want a site that is organized for their benefit, is funded by their membership dues, has a paid staff that keeps the site running smoothly and produces professional level resources with a portion of those funds?

The "donate button" has existed for over two years. It is in the form of a contributing member subscription which can be for several different time frames and for as little as $7.50. I do not have a Donate Button prominently displayed because I personally dislike the entire concept of some choosing to contribute and most not. I also think it make us look like a charity case, which we are not.

There were only a few replies which actually understood the choice and again I probably did not communicate it well enough. At another time in my life, in a different industry, I had the honor to be one of the founders of the National Coffee Service Association. I hosted an organizing convention in Washington DC which produced a merger with four other regional associations and a second convention with a trade show in Atlanta which resulted in the ratification of a charter for the group, the signing up of more than 500 charter members at $300 a year dues, and the signing up of more than 100 merchant members as well. The NCSA went on to grow extensively and retain the firm of Smith-Bucklin in Chicago to manage us with a six figure annual budget. The members received in return lots of benefits including:

• Professionally prepared educational and training material
• Group insurance
• Legislative representation
• An annual convention and trade show
• Certification programs
• And lots more that improved the profitability and professionalism of every member

I served on the board for two years holding the office of Secretary and then Regional Vice President after which I sold my business and left the industry. The NCSA was on its own for over 20 years before it merged with the National Automated Merchandising Association which exists to this day.

So I know something about associations.

All the individual complaints and suggestions aside, Signs 101 really only has a choice of two business models. There is certainly room for donations in a merchant advertising model and there is certainly room for merchant advertisers in a member supported model. The choice quite simply is a continuation of our current model or a shift to the other. Either way change will still happen.

In the five years I've been involved with Signs 101 there have been lots of requests and suggestions for the kinds of things a member supported model would do as part of its mission. They largely go unanswered and will remain unanswered without volunteerism by very capable individuals coming forth. And the odds are that nothing meaningful will happen in that regard. An adoption of a member supported model would cause those kinds of things to happen as a normal function.

For any reading this that may suspect my motivation for laying these things out: It is as simple as the day I accepted the reins of this forum. I simply want to give back to an industry that has been good to me and which could use some tools to increase the levels of professionalism and profitability. I will be turning 67 next month. I've drastically downsized my signmaking activities to focus on my clipart business. I do not and have never viewed my involvement with Signs 101 as a path to fortune. And realistically I will terminate my involvement with it within the next two or three years.

So it can continue evolving in its current form or it can be a starting point for something, IMHO, much more worthwhile.

But that decision belongs to the membership and not to me.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Personally I think the site's business model is fine as is. But since I'm not a "paying member" nor am I the one paying the bills (which by the way cannot entail a massive amount becuase it only takes at most, what, $15.00 a month to have it hosted? Now you choosing to pay yourself for your time is another entity all unto itself, but I'm referring to the physical expense of the server).

In the future I'll be sure to make a post of site stability. I had just figured it was something everyone experienced because I've seen a few posts over the past months talking about it..

I love the posts that attempt to state what our costs are. All over the board and none are close to being right. This is not your basic five page brochure website. It utilizes three different commercial web applications and requires constant monitoring for both member activity and site functionality.

Server rental = $389.00 a month
Server management = $29.00 a month
Professional upgrade services for site software = average $1,000 a year
Support forum access for the three web apps = $100 per year
Credit card acceptance fees and other expenses = $1,000 to $1,500 a year

Let's call it an even $8,600 a year to provide Signs 101. On top of that, we have my donated time of 50 to 60 hours a week and Stacy's donated time of probably 20 hours a week.

So please harbor no misconceptions about running a site that serves up 75,000+ pages a month for $15.00 a month.

But to be clear, I am not complaining about the small profit the site returns me for the time I donate. I just want the membership to understand why every thing that bugs them continues to be an irritant. And also understand why we aren't flush with prepared resources to aid in your learning. New people coming into the business or new members already in the business are the life blood of the funding for what every member receives. As such they deserve your courtesy as a core minimum. Merchant members deserve the support of the members with their purchases, their referrals and from attacks on them.

 

[Pro Image]

I love the posts that attempt to state what our costs are. All over the board and none are close to being right. This is not your basic five page brochure website. It utilizes three different commercial web applications and requires constant monitoring for both member activity and site functionality.

Server rental = $389.00 a month
Server management = $29.00 a month
Professional upgrade services for site software = average $1,000 a year
Support forum access for the three web apps = $100 per year
Credit card acceptance fees and other expenses = $1,000 to $1,500 a year

Let's call it an even $8,600 a year to provide Signs 101. On top of that, we have my donated time of 50 to 60 hours a week and Stacy's donated time of probably 20 hours a week.

So please harbor no misconceptions about running a site that serves up 75,000+ pages a month for $15.00 a month.

Some people just dont have a clue Fred..........I wouldnt have even put a guess as to what it cost to operate all your sites.........

Thanks........

 

[Billct2]

Fred, if it was that easy the "experts" would all be living in the islands running websites.
You say you make a small profit, I hope so, but I suspect your work on this site pays less than minimum wage.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred, if it was that easy the "experts" would all be living in the islands running websites.
You say you make a small profit, I hope so, but I suspect your work on this site pays less than minimum wage.

Your demonstrated abilities in quantum mathematics rival those of Stephen Hawking and your ability to deduce succinct conclusions from complex information would rival those of Sherlock Holmes himself. I commend you for your concise and precise summary of what has been presented.

Billct gets the Signs 101 Attaboy Award for the week!

 

[Ken]

67????

Man, I can only hope to live that long..and with what I've been reading here...ohhh...my reluctant recommendation is to give it up, turn off the switch...enjoy...
How much money/commitment does anyone need to die?
It may be simple..but Cheers! to Fred and Signs 101.
That is too simplistic....I'm well aware of that...
To all the long-timers here...THANK YOU!
To all the newbies..thanks for keeping us on our toes!
Live long and Prosper...Ken...(oh... All
You Need is Love)..I'm signing off...

 

[weaselboogie]

I was close! I woulda guessed around 10K.

 

[flisk]

I love the posts that attempt to state what our costs are. All over the board and none are close to being right. This is not your basic five page brochure website. It utilizes three different commercial web applications and requires constant monitoring for both member activity and site functionality.

Server rental = $389.00 a month
Server management = $29.00 a month
Professional upgrade services for site software = average $1,000 a year
Support forum access for the three web apps = $100 per year
Credit card acceptance fees and other expenses = $1,000 to $1,500 a year

Let's call it an even $8,600 a year to provide Signs 101. On top of that, we have my donated time of 50 to 60 hours a week and Stacy's donated time of probably 20 hours a week.

So please harbor no misconceptions about running a site that serves up 75,000+ pages a month for $15.00 a month.

But to be clear, I am not complaining about the small profit the site returns me for the time I donate. I just want the membership to understand why every thing that bugs them continues to be an irritant. And also understand why we aren't flush with prepared resources to aid in your learning. New people coming into the business or new members already in the business are the life blood of the funding for what every member receives. As such they deserve your courtesy as a core minimum. Merchant members deserve the support of the members with their purchases, their referrals and from attacks on them.

Fred, shop around, seriously. You can get a much better deal than what you are currently paying, and yes, in the $15.00 a month price range.
Hell, you could even have a dedicated server for less than that a year, and have a data-center host it (which is usually about $174.00 a month).

Shoot for that matter you can even get a dedicated Dual-Core 3040 Xeon (Linux or Windows based server) with 1024GB of memory and 1500GB of bandwidth per month for $219.00 a month, or jump up to 4096GB of memory and 2500GB of bandwidth for $279.00 a month.

These forums are not overly graphic intensive, I'd be surprised if it was breaking, what, 200GB a month in bandwidth?

I'd seriously look into shopping around if it's costing you over $400.00 a month for these forums.


EDIT: Oh, the $12.95 a month package I was referring to gives you 1,000GB of disk-space, unlimited bandwidth per month, and is also on a Dual-Core 3040 Xeon (Linux based only). The down-side is that you share the server with other "sites", your "site" is simply placed ino a folder which only you and those you give access to have access to.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred, shop around, seriously. You can get a much better deal than what you are currently paying, and yes, in the $15.00 a month price range.
Hell, you could even have a dedicated server for less than that a year, and have a data-center host it (which is usually about $174.00 a month).

Shoot for that matter you can even get a dedicated Dual-Core 3040 Xeon (Linux or Windows based server) with 1024GB of memory and 1500GB of bandwidth per month for $219.00 a month, or jump up to 4096GB of memory and 2500GB of bandwidth for $279.00 a month.

These forums are not overly graphic intensive, I'd be surprised if it was breaking, what, 200GB a month in bandwidth?

I'd seriously look into shopping around if it's costing you over $400.00 a month for these forums.


EDIT: Oh, the $12.95 a month package I was referring to gives you 1,000GB of disk-space, unlimited bandwidth per month, and is also on a Dual-Core 3040 Xeon (Linux based only). The down-side is that you share the server with other "sites", your "site" is simply placed ino a folder which only you and those you give access to have access to.

I realize you're just trying to be helpful but you're armchair quarterbacking at this point with all over the board prices that only serve to confuse.

We used to have hosted service for 14.95 a month and outgrew it ... not because of bandwidth or disk space but because of the ability to handle the kind of server load we generate. We went from there to an entry level dedicated server at EV-1 on the advice of Barry at Printingdigital.net. As the site continued to grow, we upgraded our server to the current dual xeon last year. It's a 3.2 gHz with 4 GB RAM and an upgraded hard drive and 100 MBS uplink. The base price is $289 but with upgrades and cPanel it is $389 a month.

The decisions to make each of these moves were done in consultation with individuals who were experienced in such matters. Each move was harder than the last with the last time taking three man days followed by an intensive week of tracking down bugs and repairing or reloading code and databases.

So to come along at this point and make a statement like this is a piece of cake and you can run this site on a $15 a month hosted plan means little more than "I coulda done it cheaper and better" even though you didn't and couldn't. It is what it is and I wouldn't go through another move to cut my server costs in half. It's just too much work.

 

[Lunatic Taskbar]

Well said Fred