Signs101 - Is it just me....

[GypsyGraphics]

For whatever you like or dislike about Signs 101.... it's real.

While it might make for a pleasant read...you can't ask people to always play nice, if the goal is to learn from the experiences of others.

Running a business that requires creativity on demand can be tremendously stressful. And the daily struggles we all face dealing with clients who don’t understand what we do, or worse, think they understand, are very different than in business where products are purchased off a shelf.

Creative people are often, high energy, opinionated, passionate and outspoken. I expect to come to this site, read about others experiences, the good the bad and the ugly. There’s a lot to be gained from hearing the bad and the ugly. Not the least of which is learning to appreciate the good.

So, especially on days when I feel like closing my doors and opening a tire shop; because I imagine conversations like this.

Q: how can I help you today?
A: I NEED tires.
Q: What color?
A: Black.
Q: What shape?
A: Round?
Q: do you know how many and what size you’d like?
A: why, yes I do.

... I’m thankful to have a someplace to come, to research, ask questions, vent, laugh and hear from people dealing with the same issues I am.

No matter the reason I come here on any given day, I’m better off for having come.

And as for filtering members responses.... I’m a big NO on that. If you only want nice answers to your questions... go ask your mom.

 

[Bly]

I visit mainly to check out equipment issues, & if I can be of help to someone I'll toss my 2c in.
This isn't the friendliest forum I've been on but that doesn't bother me.. I have friends elsewhere.
I have noticed there's a fair bit of posturing from people who fancy themselves as arbiters of style and taste.. I have no idea whether they have the talent to back their attitude, don't care either.
The constant sniping about premium membership is divisive in my opinion also.

Having said all that there seems to be some great people here. Some positivity from them would go a long way to counter the bullying, although it sounds like they are tired and are just withdrawing instead.

 

[Graphics2u]

People are here for different reasons. Myself, I AM NOT A DESIGNER, That's why I don't post up things like that because I don't want to hear how bad it is. Maybe that's why it bothers me to see the bashing that takes place here. Since Neato started this thread with a thought on wishing there was more talk about design and layout that's maybe what's he's more into in the business. And he should be, I've seen his work and it is great! As well as many others here. I just don't have that in me.

I am much more into the technical aspect of the business. Such as computers, materials, equipment, tips & tricks, troubleshooting and reairs. I get just about as much enjoyment out of helping someone else fix a problem as I do receiving help on a problem I'm having.

I am a premium subscriber, not because I don't want to share certain info with the general public, but simply because I appreciate the time, effort and money it takes to keep this place going. However, It is nice to have an area off limits to every person that uses Google to discuss pricing info.

Anyway, got to get back to work.

 

[Deaton Design]

Ive always considered myself a "nice guy". Maybe too nice, but I just cant tell someone that their layout is crap, or "start over", or something of the sort. Thats defeating the purpose of this site. Criticism applied right can do alot for an individuals outlook on themselves and their business. I agree that some people have no business being in the sign business, but Im not gonna tell them that. Heck, Ive got several in my town. But there are many that do have an eye for layout and a talent for making signs, and Ive seen people grow on this site, because they accepted criticism when it was done right, and used our ideas and advice and got quite a bit better at what they do.
I come here every single day. Not because Im a merchant, because I like it here, and have made many good friends. I want to keep those friends, so if Ive got something to say about their work, Im going to word it so its helpful, not sarcastic and hurtful.
I agree that the site has changed since I first started here, but its still a goldmine for anyone in the sign business.

 

[Marlene]

One of the elements I really enjoy here is when a group of designers come together to help someone. Suddenly you have all these different interpretations coming up from these very talented designers.

The end product usually looks nothing like the original and most agree its a great piece. The customer is happy as is every one else. Every one learnt a little bit.

I too love these threads. there are a good many like that and there are also a good many that just end up as a bash fest. it is hard to pin point why some threads go that way while others don't. I just recently told a member that their design for a high school team looked like it was desinged by a person in high school. I also posted an example of a team logo I had just worked with that was supplied by the high school. I think some times, what is posted sounds meaner than intened. I wanted the person to move past what was the norm for a high school team but when reading back on it, it did sound really mean. the person who posted the thread kept on trying things suggested and ended up with a nice looking logo.

I do know that when I have posted a thread asking for help finding something or finding a font, I always can count on you wonderful people to give me a hand. I just posted a "what is this font thread" just recently that turned out to be a font designed just for the company and I had no idea. I do my own research when it comes to fonts and just needed my "pals" to help me and you did. since I have had people step up to help me, I do my best to do the same when I can.

 

[Jillbeans]

Asking for a font recognition has sometimes been a huge help to me, and I am grateful for it. I try to help with that when I can. I am in no way an equipment guru, being from the old school this is something I struggle with daily.

Design and layout posts are my faves, and I try to help with those too even though I am not a designer at all. And I try to be honest without being too much of a beeyotch. Some people post and only want praise, and they never learn or improve. Other people have come so far in my years at 101. It is fun to watch their progress.
I wish more people would post pix of their ideas and their jobs because we all benefit from that. We all started somewhere.

When I first started posting here I was a bit afraid of the edgy tell-it-like-it-is tone.
But I have come to really appreciate it.
I have been helped immensely and I hope I have helped.

There will always be people who see signs as an "easy" job, they come and go as fast as you can comment on their topics sometimes. The newbie bashing I think is sometimes like a dog pack mentality. But I usually try not to say anything, I really try. You can tell sometimes from the first sentence "I bought a plotter on eBay how do I hook it up and where can I get a copy of the Harley logo?" etc.

But a forum is made up of a lot of different people from Sergio strokers to freebie beggars to sh!t stirrers to people who can actually help, and want to help. It would be boring if everyone was happy and shiny. But then again there is the old adage about if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything. Joe Diaz's dad Bill once said something about a "compliment sandwich" You put the praise out first, then the critique, then follow it up with something positive. Or something like that.

Love....Jill

 

[Graphics2u]

Joe Diaz's dad Bill once said something about a "compliment sandwich" You put the praise out first, then the critique, then follow it up with something positive. Or something like that.

Love....Jill

I've heard that as the three C's, Commend, Critique, Commend. It works.

 

[Gino]

While in school, college or at work…. I’ve always respected someone that tells me the truth and doesn’t beat around the bush. Whether or not my feelings are hurt are not what is going to make me a better sign maker or a better husband or friend. Being honest with me is all I ask.

It’s too easy to tell someone all the things they want to hear and let them go down in flames when the real world hits them. If your friends can’t be honest with you…. who can ??

However, I don’t agree with doing it in a hurtful way. I may have hurt peoples’ feelings over the years here, in school and just along life’s way, but it usually was not intentional…. unless I was provoked. I DO like getting back at someone…. eventually.

There are many people on this site today, or lately, that don’t have the passion for this business I have. I take those people with a grain of salt and have no problem kicking their butt out the door for being more serious about this industry. It just kills me to see people butcher this industry and then come back with a lazy attitude that they didn’t know any better or had to start somewhere. That is a pathetic excuse.

What would a bakery owner do if some know-it-all came in for a job and couldn’t even use a measuring cup ?? Or sift flour without spilling it all over the place. How about the sport that takes the cake out of the oven and doesn’t drop it, but didn’t bother looking at the timer to see he/she just moved the cake around before it had finished baking causing a flop ?? Your butt would be fired by the end of the day.​

Well, there is no difference for people that are just looking for an easy way out in our field. It doesn’t take long to spot these kinds of people in this industry. Why waste valuable classroom time with jokers or class clowns ??

Many people want to say you have to start somewhere…. well start by coming in and trying to help yourself a little by showing us what you do know and can offer and we’ll get you further in your career because we want to… not because you think you deserve our answers or attention. Remember, we already are running successful businesses and you want a part of the action… so how does an attitude fit into that scenario ??

Your first day of a school semester… did you spend it mouthing off to your teachers or professors telling them how you wanted to be lectured and taught by demanding how you wanted everything GIVEN TO YOU… or did you fail there, too ??

C’mon folks…. there’s no right way or wrong way to do this stuff, but there sure is an easy way to make friends and you don’t need Kool Aid to do it. A little kindness will go a long way and since many of the newbies are looking to get in…. it only makes sense that you’re the ones that need to learn the ropes of how to obtain answers before biting the teachers’ heads off.


As for the neat threads and such… they are missing and lacking lately, but it’s no wonder when you have a bunch of piranhas waiting for anything that moves. I also think there are many wannabee teachers here giving out advice that newbies should not be listening to, but again… this is a free country and we’re all about free speech and freedom of will here, so I guess we’re all gonna be responsible for what information we take and how we use it with the thought of ‘Buyer Beware’.

‘Answer Beware’ should be our slogan here. ​

 

[iSign]

The "tone" mentioned by some in this thread can be corrected. It just takes time. It's done through moderation. Moderating is what sets and keeps the tone of the forum.

I've dug my heels in on issues and been told to knock it off. Yet other people dig their heels in and it's just fine.

you? dig your heels in on issues? really? what do you mean?

Stacy, by not moderating the tone, you are, essentially setting the tone for the forum.

If arguments are allows to get out of hand and no moderation is done or at the very least a "Hey, knock it off", then you ARE setting the tone.

I've seen some very family friendly forums and they are maintained family friendly because of what's allowed by moderators.

This forum seems to allow a very wide path for people to say or do anything...

I'll keep my opinion to myself unless someone asks me for it, I'm just stating that on all forums, the tone of the forum is controlled and set by the moderators.

Oh... now i see what you mean... Stacy has explained that Signs101 has a policy where the members are responsible for their own "tone" ..but you still stand behind your theory that it's the moderators fault... so I guess saying that 4 more times... that must be the "digging your heels in" thing you spoke of?

...well, whatever... I find it offensive that you must go on and on and on about that, but she seems not to mind your tone...

Oh well, maybe she is responsible for your tone on this... since she let you get away with it...

 

[wildside]

this thread had a great tone until that....

 

[CES020]

Doug, I think many of us are guilty of digging our heels in on things we are passionate about. But there's a difference, in my opinion, between being passionate about things and being a jerk about things and calling people names and demeaning them. I have said nothing to demean Stacy, in fact, I praised the moderators for what they do. I also said I have not giving my opinion on whether I thought the forum needed more moderation or not.

I simply stated that moderators are the tool used to control the tone of posts. I didn't know that was debatable, but apparently it is. I don't think I've called anyone out in this thread or been rude. I can't say that about the posts that many have referenced in this thread.

As someone that's run forums in the past, I can tell you that moderating is what's typically used in forums to set what's allowed and what's not allowed. I'm not sure who can be responsible for the tone if it's not the moderators. I certainly don't have the authority to delete a post that's gone down to the name calling level. All I (and 99.9% of the other people on the forum who aren't mod's can do is sit and watch it happen). Maybe moderators don't control the tone. Heck, it's only my opinion. I can say in my experience, I have used moderating to control the tone of the forum. Doesn't mean it'll work here, doesn't mean anything should change, it just means what it said, I have used it myself in the past. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying it's a tool in the toolbox.

While we ALL are responsible for our own tone, there will always be those those look to cause trouble or flame. It would be nice to have everyone stay cordial on the forum, but there are some people who aren't capable of doing that.

If you are reading my posts as an attack, then you are misunderstanding my intent. Stacy said she didn't take offense to what I said and didn't see it as a shot at anyone. If she wasn't offended in how I phrased it, then I'm fine. If she was offended, then I'd publicly and privately apologize to her.

If I thought this place was horrible, I wouldn't pay to be here or come back every day. I think it's an amazing forum and I thank Fred for allowing me to participate and I thank all the mod's for all the hard work they do. I didn't start this thread, I just agreed with a dozen other people about not liking to see the flaming that happens from time to time. I try every day to be more helpful than hurtful on posts and some posts I'm able to do that, some I'm not. Those days when I'm not, I'm not proud, and more often than not, I wish I could take what I said back, and in almost every case when I've said something I probably shouldn't have, I've privately contacted the person to apologize. I'm still a work in progress, as are many people here. No one's perfect, but I also believe that no one deserves some of the flaming that goes on. I thought we were supposed to be here to help each other, not hurt each other.

Having said all that, that's not fact, that's just my opinion. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, it just means I have an opinion, and that opinion may or may not change based on the knowledge I currently have at the time of my thoughts. If you believe my opinion is incorrect, tell me what I have said you don't agree with, show me the information, and maybe you'll change my mind. Nothing wrong with that. I try not to be a win/lose kind of person. I think we can both win, especially if one of us shows the other their errors in a compassionate way rather than a demeaning way.

 

[iSign]

this thread had a great tone until that....

and your post sums up the question of moderating style quite well... everyone has a different opinion of what to keep and what to lose... so with a less-is-more approach to moderating, our administrative personnel don't risk as many claims of censorship or favoritism... but if they are trying to be the tone police... do they leave CES2020's post and delete mine? or the other way around? ...how do they decided what to surpress if they were to take the tone police approach?

I don't have any gripe with CES2020, I just believe a moderating style has already been chosen for this forum, and under that style, the forum has established itself as one of, if not the most successful & popular forums in our industry...

...so to "blame" that moderating style for the negative behavior of a minority... it serves no good purpose in my opinion. The style of this site's moderation is not up for discussion, or subject to change... so why does an opinion about various styles have to be worded as blame for our hard working admin's?

 

[CES020]

I don't have any gripe with CES2020, I just believe a moderating style has already been chosen for this forum, and under that style, the forum has established itself as one of, if not the most successful & popular forums in our industry...

...so to "blame" that moderating style for the negative behavior of a minority... it serves no good purpose in my opinion. The style of this site's moderation is not up for discussion, or subject to change... so why does an opinion about various styles have to be worded as blame for our hard working admin's?

Just to clear this up. I didn't blame anyone. I said that moderation is a method of controlling the tone of a forum. I did not suggest one way or the other that we should or should not have more moderation on this forum. I simply agreed with about 10 other people that it's sad to see some of the flame wars.

I think Fred, Stacy, and all the mod's (whoever they are) do a great job. They obviously have their hands full with a forum this large and they do a great job running it. It is the best sign forum on the internet, hands down.

 

[iSign]

CES, we posted at the same time, so I'm only reading yous now that I'm done with my reply to wsgraphix..

...for the record, i agree with the concerns by many that the unfriendly comments are the least desirable... as i would feel in any community.. although such is life & we don't get to have the perfect world we wish for...


I posted about your comments because in all of this entire thread, as i read it... your comments were both ironic (stating the digging in of heels) and in my opinion confrontational... and I am also in agreement that we all dig in our heels from time to time... myself included to an extreme degree at times, while like you stated, I also have seen my strongly held opinions changed at times, from well articulated arguments.

To me, if a kindergarten teacher says 'kids, do whatever you want, until I say you can't do that"... then if kids hit & bite & curse, & the teacher says nothing... it's sorta the teachers fault..

...but if an adult education instructor says "we're not babysitters, so behave professionally because we aren't charging you enough to offer you a highly controlled environment" ...well, if you end up with an environment that gets slightly out of control at times... you can make the connection that more policing could help.. but I wouldn't say that the act of trusting adults to behave is to be condemned as the cause for adults that don't behave!

 

[iSign]

Just to clear this up. I didn't blame anyone. I said that moderation is a method of controlling the tone of a forum.

ok, I've made my case. I'll stand down, but it comes off as blame to me.

Stacy, by not moderating the tone, you are, essentially setting the tone for the forum.

 

[Bigdawg]

Guys, guys - no need to argue

we are a bunch of very firmly opinionated people on this forum.... and that may be the understatement of the year. I took no offense at what CES020 posted.. and not sure why you did Doug but thanks for sticking up for us.

I respect CES020 for putting his opinion out there. I like that - and he had every right to. Neato's thread has become a "what's wrong with Signs 101" thread (yeah - I think we hijacked you pretty good Philip)

Let's just quit with who blames who and do our little things that make it nicer here

<cue Inner Hippie>

Maybe help a newbie when your first response is WTF? or click on the "what font is this thread" when you are really thinking "damn... another font thread"...

Yeah I wear some pretty rose-colored glasses when I look at things and I don't always read the "tone" as nasty as some others do. Sometimes I think if you look for meanness you will always find a way to read that into something someone else posted. So all I can say is... Peace, Love and Happiness - along with a good dose of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism when it's needed would go far...

So can't we all just get along?

<Stacy dances out of the room throwing daisy petals and flashing peace signs>

 

[CES020]

and on me!

 

[iSign]

Guys, guys - no need to argue

we are a bunch of very firmly opinionated people on this forum.... and that may be the understatement of the year. I took no offense at what CES020 posted.. and not sure why you did Doug but thanks for sticking up for us.

sorry, I don't think of it as arguing, but I'm back to my peaceful self...
I could see that it didn't concern you, & I could tell it wasn't intended in a blameful way... BUT to me it still came off the way i tried to indicate with my teacher analogy.. I'm sure CES202 knows I'm just making conversation really...

 

[QualitySigns]

High School Attitudes

I haven't been on here much lately because of the same toxicity that others have already mention... and I wasn't on the receiving end before anyone asks. Now I just peek in occasionally to see what's new.

Yep - what he said. Although, I might add, I do learn a lot of good things when browsing Signs 101. There is mostly good here; however, I think that there are some members who just get a kick out of hassling people. Perhaps they haven't got past the mentality they had in high school when they were hanging out in senior hall, leaning against the lockers, hassling the sophomores as they nervously walked by.

 

[k.a.s.]

I love this place. There is tons of awesome info here. I mainly don't post much design stuff just b/c I don't have time to mess with putting it up then keeping up with the thread that comes with it.

Honestly I think there has been less flaming than at one point. And the critique is usally spot on, if you want people to blow smoke up your butt this is not the place to post. But numerous times people have posted work and through suggestions have drasticly improved the project. I usally try and give helpfull suggestions, while pointing out positives of the design.

That said there have been times that I have posted stuff and not agreed with the critique, ultimately it comes down to what you want to produce. Some things are standard design principals, but a lot is still a matter of opinion.

For the most part, I like things just the way they are.

Kevin