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Since when is this kosher?

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by Doyle, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    I've never seen this before, and I would never attempt it... There is a 4x4 post in the ground, about 3' above grade. Then there is a PVC post sleeve over it, hollow above the 4x4 post (total height approx. 9'). Two posts like this were supporting a 4' x 4' alumalite panel mounted between them. So the sign was attached to two hollow PVC post sleeves with a couple of PVC supports that went across the top and bottom of the sign. The only real support was the 4x4 posts in the ground and the lower 3' of the PVC post sleeves.

    Customer called me after a wind storm when the sign ended up blowing down the street and tearing the frame apart. The sign had been like this for a few years and it blows my mind that it lasted that long....
     

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  2. omgsideburns

    omgsideburns Very Active Member

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    Well those PVC frames generally don't have any posts in them at all. But they do have horizontals connecting them in that window you can see the 4x4 through.. and then they are screwed in place. Dropping 4x4's in the ground and sliding the PVC over them doesn't seem inappropriate, but not having the horizontal to connect each side sounds like a bad idea without any hardware to hold the sign in place.
     
  3. Marlene

    Marlene Major Contributor

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    that little key hole in the plastic sleeve looks like a sign kit we got years back from Grimco. you are suppose to have the post inside go the height of the sleeve but it looks like someone cheated on that
     
  4. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    There were horizontal pieces connecting each side, but I would have at least had my posts go the entire height of the sleeves. The entire sign was attached only to hollow pvc sleeves. I don't know, maybe something like this would fly in other areas, I still wouldn't build it this way. The area this sign is installed is right on Lake Michigan and the particular street is like a wind tunnel coming off the lake, I wouldn't have trusted this installation for 6 months...

    Now to rip these posts out of the frozen soil today, and replace with a proper 6x6 cedar frame that we built.. man those posts were expensive. 6x6x10' cedar and 4x6x8 cedar were $115/ea...... but I will walk away trusting that it will never fall apart.
     
  5. OldPaint

    OldPaint Major Contributor

    6x6's to hold up a 4' X 4' ALUMICORE SIGN???? IS OVER KILL!!!!!!
     
  6. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    Ya think? But the posts sleeves were 6x6-ish and 4x4's would look chinsey in this case (or a step down from the look they had, at least). We aren't using 6x6's because 4x4 wouldn't be adequate, it is only for aesthetics. I wish we could have used 4x4's, I would have been done with this project already.
     
  7. OldPaint

    OldPaint Major Contributor

    sometimes having carpentry skill in this business will give you a jump on the problems you may encounter
    4' X 4's are even more the you need to support a a SINGLE 4' X 4' ALUMICORE SIGN!!!!!!
    with carpentry skills, you coulda done the job with 4' x 4''s!!! the exposed section of the 4 x 4 could have been covered with the PVC that looks like a 6 x 6. like i said to start with ......your doin OVERKILL, AS FOR CONSTRUCTION STRENGTH AND WASTING TIME AND MONEY....
     
  8. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    There is more than one way to skin a cat.... your way is not the only way, and my way is not wrong. I did seriously consider building this sign more than one way. New 4x4 posts and PVC sleeves (since the existing sleeves were torn apart) with all of the proper hardware would have cost about the same as what I am doing. Why is my way wrong?
     
  9. OldPaint

    OldPaint Major Contributor

    if it was right(and didnt waste a lot of time/money)............why are you wondering how else to do it??
     
  10. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    Why do you reply to threads without reading them first? This post never asked for advice on how to build the sign.... that part of my job is already finished. I was simply asking why someone would build the sign out of hollow PVC post sleeves and expect it to last in a city with consistent high winds.... or anywhere for that matter. I'm not a carpenter by trade, but it sure as hell didn't look right to me, that is the only reason I posted the photo.

    :thankyou:
     
  11. omgsideburns

    omgsideburns Very Active Member

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    Those PVC frames are very strong if they are assembled correctly. They are supposed to be screwed together. The horizontals should also push in nearly four inches in to those verticals.
     
  12. Pat Whatley

    Pat Whatley Major Contributor

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    I've got a 4' x 8' sign with a pvc frame that was installed that way 8 years ago. Still looks perfect. The 4x4 post comes up about 3' into the frame. We had to to it that way because when you slide the vertical rails into the frame they need to go all the way in...there's no room left for a 4x4. We did screw the pvc to the post at the bottom just so we wouldn't have to worry about it lifting off.

    From your post it sounds like that's what happened here. It was working just fine until it lifted off the posts. A couple of screws when it was originally installed would have cured that.
     
  13. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

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    From what that picture shows they didn't install the cross member right, it has to go all the way into the post.
    I would have just redone it correctly with the same material.
     
  14. TammieH

    TammieH Very Active Member

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    I agree there is nothing wrong with the materials used or how the installation was supposed to be done...Looks like whoever did the install, either had the "good enough" attitude or had limited skills and or tools for the job.
     
  15. Doyle

    Doyle Very Active Member

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    It is obvious that I have had limited experience with using these PVC post sleeves, but they just don't seem like they would be strong enough. Or, as stated above, they just weren't installed properly.
     
  16. petepaz

    petepaz Major Contributor

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    i would say the original sign just wasn't installed properly. i have used the pvc sign kits before. the signs are still up and standing strong 7 years later. with the wind in that area and not being installed properly that was the recipe for disaster.
     
  17. Techman

    Techman Major Contributor

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    Those 4x4 PVC posts hold up 6 ft fence panels. I would suggest that a fence panel carries huge wind loads in excess of what a sign panel presents.
     
  18. Craig Sjoquist

    Craig Sjoquist Major Contributor

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    Ran across garbage installs like this all the time, every year a new one like this.

    Once looked at a neon one .. went wow how could they ..few weeks later saw it go up in flames driving by lol

    Just be glad it is not you & you have more common sense.
     
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