Discussion So, how many are gonna...............................

[v11 graphics]

this forum is about signs, i thought...

 

[GAC05]

this forum is about signs, i thought...

Good thing the list is not sponsored by the NFL

 

[Bly]

this forum is about signs, i thought...

Strange first post but welcome...
so post something about signs.

 

[Gino]

So, how many find it odd, that some on here can label, rant and tell others off at the receivers expense, but they go around screaming about how everyone else is sterotyping and living wrong ??

Why is it, some people read and read and read and still don't know what goes on in the real world right aside ofthem ?? Maybe they just read and never wandering out into the real world. Living in a perfect environment, dictating who should or can write this or that, telling people to stop using crayons and shrugging off responsibilities to live your own life without bringing harm to those about him/her..... can be so 1000% correct about so much, but can't answer a simple a$$ question....... is it disrespectful to kneel DURING out National Anthem ?? Perhaps, some people have just taken to easy street, living the life they are b!itching about and just don't really give a hoot, but just wanna yap, yap, yap away and just blow hot air up everyone's petunia.

Go write a book about all of your misfortunes and short-comings like your female wannabee for president. This sh!t is so sickening, it ain't even worth getting into anymore.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

So, how many find it odd, that some on here can label, rant and tell others off at the receivers expense, but they go around screaming about how everyone else is sterotyping and living wrong ??

Why is it, some people read and read and read and still don't know what goes on in the real world right aside ofthem ?? Maybe they just read and never wandering out into the real world. Living in a perfect environment, dictating who should or can write this or that, telling people to stop using crayons and shrugging off responsibilities to live your own life without bringing harm to those about him/her..... can be so 1000% correct about so much, but can't answer a simple a$$ question....... is it disrespectful to kneel DURING out National Anthem ?? Perhaps, some people have just taken to easy street, living the life they are b!itching about and just don't really give a hoot, but just wanna yap, yap, yap away and just blow hot air up everyone's petunia.

Go write a book about all of your misfortunes and short-comings like your female wannabee for president. This sh!t is so sickening, it ain't even worth getting into anymore.

Its not disrespectful, kneeling is more submissive pose.

 

[bob]

Who says a white woman can't be president? The female candidate in the last election received 3 MILLION more votes than her opponent and if not for a foreign adversary engaging in a conspiracy with the junta that was placed in office, deeply targeted voter suppression, gerrymandered districts and other acts of chicanery, she'd be in charge right now instead of the travesty we must temporarily endure until the truth comes out....

This may come as a shock to your no doubt delicate mental balance but here in the USofA the people have no right to vote in a presidential election. The states elect a president, not the people. You might want to become familiar with Article II: Section 1 of the US constitution. The states nominate electors. They are free to do this in any manner hey see fit. That all of the states allow the great unwashed to vote for that state's electors is mere happenstance. They could just as easily select them via a rousing rubber of paper, rock, and scissors.

That being the case it means absolutely nothing that one candidate garners more popular votes than another. Which, if you ponder this, is exactly the reason for the electoral system.

As to the rest of your delusional conspiracy theories, either trot out some actual tangible evidence or put a sock in it.

 

[jtiii]

So, we've come to an agreement. All of those in favor of this stoopid stunt..... have no problem kneeling during the National Anthem or desecrating just about anything else patriotic or held close to most red-blooded Americans.

Gino, I am in favor of this stoopid stunt, because I think that the issues being protested are of vital importance to the future of our nation, and are important enough to violate the sense of decorum here in order to bring attention to said issues. I am not okay with desecration. Desecration involves things like blasphemy or "violent disrespect". Westboro baptist members desecrate.

Sometimes, civil disobedience is patriotism. I think it is disrespectful to our nation, and certainly unpatriotic, to ignore and allow the degradation of the values we profess to hold.

If the players were protesting by flipping the bird during the anthem, hell, even by turning their backs to the flag, I would call that disrespectful. I personally think they have found a pretty respectful way to get the nation talking about something they feel needs to be discussed.

I understand that you disagree with me about whether it's appropriate, and that's fine. But it's too easy for us to paint each other with a broad brush - too easy for us to write each other off.

 

[Gino]

I cannot fault anyone who volunteers their own sentiments in such times as we have now, but isn't it kinda ironic, that since that first kneeling of King and his followers (like 50 years or so), nothing has changed much in the way of racial discords ?? However different and content those two pictures stand/stood for...... it's still an on-going problem.

That is a discussion for another thread and another time, but one I feel would not last long on a sign forum.

As I first said, this was just a discussion and not a debate about racial profiling, stereotyping or who's right or wrong in the reasons behind this act. Just a simple question, which I guess many cannot break it down to a yes or no. When something is either right or it's wrong, why does so much grey area enter into the discussion ?? Quoting useless politicians, newspaper articles, graphs and so much hearsay..... I guess we have what we all wanted...... total lack of harmony.

 

[Gene@mpls]

All of those in favor of this stoopid stunt..... have no problem kneeling during the National Anthem or desecrating just about anything else patriotic or held close to most red-blooded Americans.

I spent 6 years saluting the flag and lived through Kent State. Kneeling during the National Anthem is not desecration in my country. Perhaps there is a difference between patriotic and those things held close to most red-blooded Americans? Pretty sure I am as qualified an arbiter as you are. Chill man.

 

[TimToad]

As yes, assumption. Just because I live in TN now does not mean that I'm FROM TN. 6th Generation Texan (and I'm sure you would say, "Oh much better"). Bare in mind too, I have a niece that is half Asian (in which case, her father denied her and has never seen her at all period). According to you, I should be wigging out something awful about the fact that she is mixed.

Also bare in mind, I explicitly said ECONOMIC CULTURE. That would include every shade of person in the rainbow.

Strawman and assumption.

You know, I've also noticed that in most of your diatribes, you tend to belittle (along the lines of what "bob" does as well). I do my up most best not to do that. But that seems to be your MO. Almost like you are using it as way to distract. But that could be me speculating.

To me, if one's argument has merit, there is no need to belittle, call names etc. You don't have to. Doing that only inflames and distracts, it serves no functional purpose, except to stroke one's ego. Doing that tends to make other's think that you really don't have any substance to your point. One may or may not, it just doesn't serve a logical functional purpose and further the discussion in a thoughtful, logical manner.

======Edit to Add========

Even though this is none of your business, it irritated me enough to mention it



I waited until I was 37 to make sure I was able to handle the responsibilities of being a father, not just financially. It is not something that I took lightly. I will be damned if someone lumps me with people that are deadbeats that don't take care of their responsibilities, especially as a parent. Even if they are only supposed to look like me.

I can handle any other merit less insult then that.

=====End Edit==========



So prejudice of all kind is solely a European/American institution? Oh excuse, a white European/American institution and did not exist before then? And they are the sole progenitor of this institution? Is that what you are saying by "the original sin"?

This is a human issue and it's there no matter who you talk to. Can't help it, to an extent it's apart of human nature. Shoot, the institution of slavery, which is usually founded on some type of prejudice, may not just be ethnic, has been around since as long as civilization has.

Can't approach from that type of divide, in my opinion, that does more harm then good and just in some ways keeps it alive. It's a failing of everyone, like it or not.



Have you seen the voting map of Johnson in '64 (didn't the McCarthy era end in '56?)? The lower South and Arizona didn't vote for LBJ. Both my home state and the state I reside in now did (in fact, TN voted Johnson over Gore's daddy for the Democratic ticket).

Now bare in mind, Democrats in LBJ's time were not the same Democrats that we have now.

Do you honestly think that the Democrats are all that? They don't have their own issues? They are squeaky clean? Do you honestly think things would have truly changed to what you are hoping for?

Bare in mind too, I didn't vote for anyone. I have actually not ever voted period in my voting adult life. Main reason being, there hasn't been anyone worth my voting for. I'm not just going to vote because people think you should vote for voting. If I can't get behind someone and be proud to say that I voted for them, I just don't.

I never lumped you in with anybody, you made that presumption. I was just pointing out that parental abandonment. drug use, violence, crime, domestic violence, poverty, etc. are equal opportunity offenders present in ALL races living in America.

Your personal circumstances are irrelevant to the conversation except when you try to build an argument by using them.

One man's calling out bigotry and the use of dog whistle stereotypes to make an argument is another man's "belittlement". Especially when you're the one using the specious arguments and said stereotypes and being called out on them.

I've posted links to actual sources of information, statistics, etc. nobody on the "defend white people forever" by stepping on the necks of minorities to try and make yourselves appear superior has brought anything factual to the table, just empty perceptions and stereotypes built on urban legends and myths.

Yes, I'm sure if we search the earth and its history there are plenty of examples of non-caucasion, european derived racism, slavery and other nasty behaviors committed against "others" but that's not what we're talking about here. Its a major deflection to use that Trojan Horse of an argument to ignore to deny our own sordid history on race relations. Did the Chinese invite black men in Alabama into health clinics offering to cure their venereal diseases but only giving them placebo injections to see how the syphillis symptoms progress if left untreated? No, our government did.

 

[bob]

...Sometimes, civil disobedience is patriotism. I think it is disrespectful to our nation, and certainly unpatriotic, to ignore and allow the degradation of the values we profess to hold....

This is not civil disobedience. These specimens are not defying some ordinance or another. They are not exercising any right guaranteed by the constitution. The constitution specifies only what the apparatus may or may not do, not what the private sector may or may not do. Depending.

The beings putting on the protest are employees on their employer's time. Their job is to butts into seats, electronic or physical. Period. Consider if you went to, say, Burger King, and before you could order or receive your whopper you had to experience the same flavor of protest on the part of the Burger King employee that's supposed to busy fetching your order. Would you feel the same towards this demonstration and you do towards the NFL protests?

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

They are not exercising any right guaranteed by the constitution.

Except the first amendment specifically states "the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, ensuring that there is no prohibition on the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble, or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."

The beings putting on the protest are employees on their employer's time.

And the only one that can dictate what their employee does is their employer.. who have all said they will continue to allow their team to peaceably protest.

 

[Gino]

Except the first amendment specifically states "the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, ensuring that there is no prohibition on the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble, or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."



And the only one that can dictate what their employee does is their employer.. who have all said they will continue to allow their team to peaceably protest.

So, with your interpretation, one can do whatever one wants to do as long as their employer says ye or nay ?? Quite a unique way of looking at things. One doesn't hafta follow certain rules the rest of us without employers have to ?? Hmmmm, gonna hafta look into this new found zone. If this is true, then I understand better why there are so many numbskulls running around doing absolutely nothing productive...... not just football, but in the government, office workers and so many other areas.

 

[jtiii]

Consider if you went to, say, Burger King, and before you could order or receive your whopper you had to experience the same flavor of protest on the part of the Burger King employee that's supposed to busy fetching your order. Would you feel the same towards this demonstration and you do towards the NFL protests?

Taking this question at face value, what would you consider "the same flavor" at the fast food joint? The kneeling does not at all delay the onset of the product (the game), is silent, is easy to ignore and is over before the game starts. So I'm thinking black armbands maybe, or a pin on their hats? Maybe a poster that says "Burger King supports responsible, accountable, color-blind policing in our communities" or something like that.
I would feel fine with it; especially because Burger King is a private (well public obviously) company, they've decided to promote that cause, and I agree with said cause. Who wouldn't support "responsible, accountable, color-blind policing in our communities"?

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

So, with your interpretation, one can do whatever one wants to do as long as their employer says ye or nay ?? Quite a unique way of looking at things. One doesn't hafta follow certain rules the rest of us without employers have to ?? Hmmmm, gonna hafta look into this new found zone. If this is true, then I understand better why there are so many numbskulls running around doing absolutely nothing productive...... not just football, but in the government, office workers and so many other areas.

Let me put it this way.. If you're doing something you feel strongly about at your job and have no boss, are you going to listen to some random guy on the street saying "Hey! You shouldn't do that cuz it hurts my feelings!" Doubt it.

Just like all these players that choose to take a knee are being pummeled by Joe Schmoe's who A) don't understand what is even being protested and B) don't have anything to do with their job security are doing. The only person that can tell an employee at work what to do is their boss - and that's not you or any one of us in this thread. If you feel so strongly about them "disrespecting" the flag, stop supporting the NFL. That's really all you can do, but it's not going to do anything to stop the movement.

 

[TimToad]

There is no use reading or communicating with the Toad, not only does he tell you he reads more than everyone, now he is the one who tells you you are making a mistake when Bubba said that was a racist statement and the Toad gives a Philadelphia lawyer's comment on why he was wrong.
If Bubba feels it is a racist statement then I am good with it. Stick up for your fellow man once in awhile and don't give us the brainwashed version you love to spew out. Rachel Maddnow your not.

I've never said that "I read more than any of you" that's your perception, which is quite different. In fact, my main arguments whenever we engage in these kinds of conversations are general in nature, with sourcing whenever needed and without the dig whistles and perceptions based on clinging to anecdotal evidence and urban myths to make a point.

If backing up one's opinions with facts, statistics, research, sources, etc. is acting like a "Philadelphia lawyer" whatever the hell that means, then more people should be doing so.

If you agree with Bubba, then you have to own his views and any fallout or judgement from others they provoke.

Its amazing how some in our society are convinced anyone who they disagree with are "brainwashed" or have been spoon fed their beliefs, but rarely display the intellect or independence to prove that they themselves have based their beliefs on a solid, evidence based foundation. Believing what you believe, just because you do, is no matter than one's dad saying, "You better do what I told you to do, "Why?" "Because I said so"

 

[Gino]

Its amazing how some in our society are convinced anyone who they disagree with are "brainwashed" or have been spoon fed their beliefs, but rarely display the intellect or independence to prove that they themselves have based their beliefs on a solid, evidence based foundation. Believing what you believe, just because you do, is no matter than one's dad saying, "You better do what I told you to do, "Why?" "Because I said so"

Once again, I just find this just so uplifting and fresh kinda thinking. It's alright for you to point the finger at anyone who doesn't agree with you or makes more sense then you, but you still feel almightier than Thou attitude just doesn't apply to you, huh ?? This is the most basic of basic concepts of the kettle calling the pot BLACK..... or is that racial ??

For crying out loud people, get over this stuff already. This has gotten worse than the old NO Bars Hold Section Fred used to have. You've all managed to take a simple question, blow it way the f*ck outta proportion for whatever political reasons and have alienated this site even further, with your less then decent behavior and conjured up threats and worthless spiel.

I could talk about this for hours face to face with people in my area and not have anything near as so anal come of it. And I'm talking about people from both sides of the fence..... cause I did, over the weekend. Liberals, righties, communists or just looney tuned bumps on a log, you people here for being a united community sure don't show it. There is no unity in this place.

I didn't ask about splitting atoms or dissecting little babies before being born..... just if you found something disrespectful, as it was taught to me many years ago. I feel sorry for those who cannot see the difference, but my oh my, how things have changed..... and yet they didn't.

 

[TimToad]

Taking this question at face value, what would you consider "the same flavor" at the fast food joint? The kneeling does not at all delay the onset of the product (the game), is silent, is easy to ignore and is over before the game starts. So I'm thinking black armbands maybe, or a pin on their hats? Maybe a poster that says "Burger King supports responsible, accountable, color-blind policing in our communities" or something like that.
I would feel fine with it; especially because Burger King is a private (well public obviously) company, they've decided to promote that cause, and I agree with said cause. Who wouldn't support "responsible, accountable, color-blind policing in our communities"?

Way to knock it out of the freakin' park. Those with their shorts in a bunch over this issue who falsely claim that the owners are free to limit the speech and rights of their employees forget that the stadiums these games are played in built in are mostly paid for, maintained by, protected by, subsidized by, etc. the TAXPAYERS, which makes them public property, where NOBODY has the right to abridge a person's freedom of speech unless it creates a safety risk or is inciting violence.

 

[Gino]

Way to knock it out of the freakin' park. Those with their shorts in a bunch over this issue who falsely claim that the owners are free to limit the speech and rights of their employees forget that the stadiums these games are played in built in are mostly paid for, maintained by, protected by, subsidized by, etc. the TAXPAYERS, which makes them public property, where NOBODY has the right to abridge a person's freedom of speech unless it creates a safety risk or is inciting violence.

Where do you come up with these laws of yours and your reasoning powers ?? The only reason and tax money is used is to keep the teams in their city's to keep revenue up. Without them, they'd have bigger problems. It's bribe money and the taxpayers have no say in the matter.

 

[bob]

Way to knock it out of the freakin' park. Those with their shorts in a bunch over this issue who falsely claim that the owners are free to limit the speech and rights of their employees forget that the stadiums these games are played in built in are mostly paid for, maintained by, protected by, subsidized by, etc. the TAXPAYERS, which makes them public property, where NOBODY has the right to abridge a person's freedom of speech unless it creates a safety risk or is inciting violence.

This then is what's known in circles with more than a handful of functioning brain cells as 'tortured reasoning'. To once more quote a old philosophy mentor when confronted with this sort of thing: "Don't be an a$$"