signmeup
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So...When push comes to shove!
- Thread starter SignManiac
- Start date
Deaton Design
New Member
Man, I love what you did. I think its awesome. Funny thing, when you get behind on your car or truck, they reposess it, even if it is on private property, I dont see why we cant do it too. Course, you did, and Im with you. I think you did the right thing.
signguy 55
New Member
Just have it in the contract that they sign that "All signage, whether attached to real property (buildings) or installed free standing on the property remains sole property of XYZ signs until full payment or outstanding balance due is made. Signs that have an outstanding balance due may be removed at the discretion of XYZ signs without any liability (criminal or civil) including claims made by any outside party to XYZ signs."
My lawyer said that is valid. That principle is how your car can be repossessed on your property. That's also how your house can be taken from you by the bank or the city/ county.
My lawyer said that is valid. That principle is how your car can be repossessed on your property. That's also how your house can be taken from you by the bank or the city/ county.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
sign55....
You can put those clauses or waivers in your contracts or invoices, but you really can't enforce them, not legally. No one can substitute another word in place of 'You're going to commit a crime, if you don't pay' and expect it to hold up in a normal court. You can use this stuff to intimidate someone, but you can't legally go through with it.
The courts hate these kinds of lawsuits and generally, no one wins when someone takes the law into their own hands.
Okay, here we go.............
About 15 years or so ago, I had this customer that flat out refused to pay me the balance. I called and hounded him for about two weeks. Finally, I went to his place and asked him if he had the money..... he laughed and told me to get off his property. I proceeded to my truck, got a ladder off and put it up against the sign and started up it. He came out waddling and said if I don't get off his property in the next 10 minutes, I'll be escorted off by the Kutztown Police in handcuffs. Well, I had just gotten my first cell phone at the time and I called my lawyer. He said get out of there as soon as you can. I was entirely in the wrong doing what I was doing.
As I was leaving, I saw the cops pull in and they asked me some questions and I just said I was politely asking the guy for my money and they said that was a civil matter, but if I don’t get off his private property it was a criminal issue.
I eventually got my money through the court system, and I was able to add to it for legal fees and other things, but it still reminds me that if the right set of circumstances happen, anyone can get into a whole heap of trouble regardless of the ERS clause or whatever other idea you come up with to repo your work.
It was explained to me that…. your contract with your customer represents what you are providing for them…. and what payment and method they are giving in return. Your ability to not be able to conduct your collection properly is a civil matter. In fact, by not collecting your balance or payment in full is really considered by the court system, you not abiding by your own contract. You, for whatever reason, broke your own contract by not collecting. Your customer can give any excuse they want, however…. it’s in writing…. black & white, signed dated and sealed….. that balance is needed upon completion, in 10 days or 30 days or whatever your terms are…. if you didn’t collect it, you cannot remove HIS/HER property… even though it’s not been paid in full. You must now use the court system to make your contract work. On the other hand, if you are found uninvited on someone’s property and they feel threatened, pissed or anything at all…. whether they rent or own, you are unwanted there and that is now criminal law and you can face quite a bit of fines, incarceration or some other hefty unwanted problems, not to mention the notoriety you might end up going through.
Anyone’s inability to collect is a private matter and filed so, where vandalism or theft is government filed.
Basically this…
Civil Law- Civil law deals with the disputes between individuals, organizations, or between the two, in which compensation is awarded to the victim.
Criminal Law- Criminal law (also known as penal law) is the body of statutory and common law that deals with crime and the legal punishment of criminal offenses.
Anyone going out and repossessing your work are basically breaking the law , no matter how justified it makes you feel.
You can put those clauses or waivers in your contracts or invoices, but you really can't enforce them, not legally. No one can substitute another word in place of 'You're going to commit a crime, if you don't pay' and expect it to hold up in a normal court. You can use this stuff to intimidate someone, but you can't legally go through with it.
The courts hate these kinds of lawsuits and generally, no one wins when someone takes the law into their own hands.
Okay, here we go.............About 15 years or so ago, I had this customer that flat out refused to pay me the balance. I called and hounded him for about two weeks. Finally, I went to his place and asked him if he had the money..... he laughed and told me to get off his property. I proceeded to my truck, got a ladder off and put it up against the sign and started up it. He came out waddling and said if I don't get off his property in the next 10 minutes, I'll be escorted off by the Kutztown Police in handcuffs. Well, I had just gotten my first cell phone at the time and I called my lawyer. He said get out of there as soon as you can. I was entirely in the wrong doing what I was doing.
As I was leaving, I saw the cops pull in and they asked me some questions and I just said I was politely asking the guy for my money and they said that was a civil matter, but if I don’t get off his private property it was a criminal issue.
I eventually got my money through the court system, and I was able to add to it for legal fees and other things, but it still reminds me that if the right set of circumstances happen, anyone can get into a whole heap of trouble regardless of the ERS clause or whatever other idea you come up with to repo your work.
It was explained to me that…. your contract with your customer represents what you are providing for them…. and what payment and method they are giving in return. Your ability to not be able to conduct your collection properly is a civil matter. In fact, by not collecting your balance
Anyone’s inability to collect is a private matter and filed so, where vandalism or theft is government filed.
Basically this…
Civil Law- Civil law deals with the disputes between individuals, organizations, or between the two, in which compensation is awarded to the victim.
Criminal Law- Criminal law (also known as penal law) is the body of statutory and common law that deals with crime and the legal punishment of criminal offenses.
Anyone going out and repossessing your work are basically breaking the law , no matter how justified it makes you feel.
Locals Find!
New Member
Very informative Gino. Just wanna say thanks for the clarification.
signguy 55
New Member
So how can your car be repossessed if you miss a payment to the title pawn company? How can the county / city take your property worth tens of thousands of dollars if you avoid paying a tax bill for $100.00? I know I'm no lawyer, but any lawyer can make a case for any situation.
Maybe the excuse "I didn't feel comfortable with the way I installed the sign, so I had to reengineer it!" is the the best way out!!!
I just know I have been very fortunate in the past. Let the customer know 2 or 3 days in advance, I will be there at such and such a time, whatever balance is due. If he / she is not there or a check is not ready I'll reschedule.
I know wholesale vendors I use for cabinets and sandblasted signs require payment in full before they ship the completed signs. That's basically the principal I use.
Maybe the excuse "I didn't feel comfortable with the way I installed the sign, so I had to reengineer it!" is the the best way out!!!
I just know I have been very fortunate in the past. Let the customer know 2 or 3 days in advance, I will be there at such and such a time, whatever balance is due. If he / she is not there or a check is not ready I'll reschedule.
I know wholesale vendors I use for cabinets and sandblasted signs require payment in full before they ship the completed signs. That's basically the principal I use.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
The best I can come up with is this little thing off the net…….
- Depending on the States Laws, first most Repo companies are prohibited from trespassing and second they are required to file a lawsuit against you for breaching (non-payment) your loan contract.
- If the Repo company did file a lawsuit against you and did not perfect service on you (prove they served you w/a notice of the case they filed, the date/time/location to appear, all of which does not allow you the required time frame of 31 days to dispute the allegations, and obtained a Judgment against you, then technically no the Repo company can not trespass and take your car.
- But notifying you "after the fact" of obtaining a Judgment against you when they take your car, requires you to come up w/the past due amount and use it to bring your payments current in order to get your car back, or, spend that money on an attorney to undo a wrong. The Repo companies are basically forcing you to waive your civil rights while acknowledging they're cheating the system.
- This game is the Repo companies "back door" strategy of simply bypassing the Court process because they know most car owners do not know the law, thereby they are abusing the judicial process while they gain from not having to pay Court costs.
Now an added thought might be…. if they are coming to reposes your car, you already know you owe money and they really don’t want their car back, they only want the money like you, but in any case… taking it back without going through proper procedures will or could possibly backfire for you.
SignManiac
New Member
No plan is 100% perfect. But it they say keep it, explain to them the liability they risk if the sign falls and kills someone. They stand to lose everything they own if they knowingly kept the sign up when they were told it had an engineering flaw in the installation. Fear is a good intimidation tactic.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Totally agree with that one. Just don't implement it unless there's no chance of getting caught............
Bigdawg
Just Me
You are not quite correct in some of that Gino...
Jeff drove a recovery truck for quite a few years down here... and a few people tried to call the police on him because they didn't get "notified" by a court. I remember one case in particular that Jeff almost got arrested for vehicle theft on - not because he didn't know the law - because the police officer didn't.
You have to have all your proper paperwork. There does not have to be a court case before repossession - most car sale contracts specifically say that the financing company has a financial interest in the vehicle and can claim that interest in the form of repossession any time the payment goes into default. On every repo, Jeff had a copy of the signed contract.
He also had to immediately call the police department and report the repossession - since this was before cell phones were common, most drivers had the dispatcher phone the police when they arrived at the repo site. Once the repo man had actually touched the car - not hooked up the car - touched the car... the repossession had begun and could be called in. Technically if someone caught him on the property - and the police arrived BEFORE he actually touched the car - he could have been arrested for trespassing.
Not a lawyer - but a car repo is totally different. If you want to make comparisons to sign repos - a better comparison would be to a contractor that works on your house and you don't pay him. He can't come rip out the fixtures he put in without lots of trouble.
Now I wonder if you wrote something into your contract that stated you could repo - if it would fall into the car repo guidelines as opposed to a contractor.
Jeff drove a recovery truck for quite a few years down here... and a few people tried to call the police on him because they didn't get "notified" by a court. I remember one case in particular that Jeff almost got arrested for vehicle theft on - not because he didn't know the law - because the police officer didn't.
You have to have all your proper paperwork. There does not have to be a court case before repossession - most car sale contracts specifically say that the financing company has a financial interest in the vehicle and can claim that interest in the form of repossession any time the payment goes into default. On every repo, Jeff had a copy of the signed contract.
He also had to immediately call the police department and report the repossession - since this was before cell phones were common, most drivers had the dispatcher phone the police when they arrived at the repo site. Once the repo man had actually touched the car - not hooked up the car - touched the car... the repossession had begun and could be called in. Technically if someone caught him on the property - and the police arrived BEFORE he actually touched the car - he could have been arrested for trespassing.
Not a lawyer - but a car repo is totally different. If you want to make comparisons to sign repos - a better comparison would be to a contractor that works on your house and you don't pay him. He can't come rip out the fixtures he put in without lots of trouble.
Now I wonder if you wrote something into your contract that stated you could repo - if it would fall into the car repo guidelines as opposed to a contractor.
CES020
New Member
How can you enter another invoice for additional installation charges when it was your "manufacturing hazard" that "caused it to be taken down"?
So you made a mistake in the engineering of the sign, and they have to pay for you to take it down and "correct it" and install the sign again?
I'd call your bluff on that one if you sent me the bill.
So you made a mistake in the engineering of the sign, and they have to pay for you to take it down and "correct it" and install the sign again?
I'd call your bluff on that one if you sent me the bill.
signmeup
New Member
I think when you leave the sign with a promise from the customer to pay you, you no longer own the sign. You own the debt you settled on. You wouldn't sue for the sign... you would sue for the debt if he didn't pay you.
Hey... what would happen if you fell while repoing the sign? Could you sue? Would your own insurance cover you? What if the wind caught the sign during repo and it fell on someone? I'd guess you'd be screwed.
Hey... what would happen if you fell while repoing the sign? Could you sue? Would your own insurance cover you? What if the wind caught the sign during repo and it fell on someone? I'd guess you'd be screwed.
iSign
New Member
WHERE IS WILD WEST WHEN YOU NEED HIM?
Surely growing up around his moms sewing circle there would be stories of a legal precedent to resolve each and every one of these questions...
how's that any more of a flaw then every single sign contract allowing a 50% balance payable upon completion?
life is not without risks, and I wouldn't blame the client for being uncomfortable with a 100% pre-pay on a complex & expensive project, which I think is why a lot of us settle for 50%.. equalizing the risk for both parties... but we always run the risk they say "keep it"
Surely growing up around his moms sewing circle there would be stories of a legal precedent to resolve each and every one of these questions...
how's that any more of a flaw then every single sign contract allowing a 50% balance payable upon completion?
life is not without risks, and I wouldn't blame the client for being uncomfortable with a 100% pre-pay on a complex & expensive project, which I think is why a lot of us settle for 50%.. equalizing the risk for both parties... but we always run the risk they say "keep it"
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I wasn't making the comparison.... sign55 did, so I did it for him/her. Also, I started out by saying it's possibly different in some states, but for the most part, it appears you and I said the same thing. I don't get what you're talking about. It does say that the Repo company is kinda shoving some weight around in hopes that the target will cave.
Also, about including a repo waiver. I'm not sure on this either, but I would imagine if your sign contract was 20 odd pages long and included all the mumbo-jumbo a house mortgage or car purchase has, you could do it, but I think most people would back away from a sign company that has a 28 page contract for a $2,500 sign.
Those others are financing purchases with interest and other people's money involved... financing you while you buy something and that's totally different from someone not paying you for something on the spot and one doesn't know diddly about collecting their money due them.
Possibly, if your contract had 30 payments and over a certain period of time, you might have a point, but not a slam/dunk cash deal. It's supposed to be paid according to the terms in your quote/invoice and if you don't collect.... it's a void contract. Now, you need the courts to do your dirty work.
Also, about including a repo waiver. I'm not sure on this either, but I would imagine if your sign contract was 20 odd pages long and included all the mumbo-jumbo a house mortgage or car purchase has, you could do it, but I think most people would back away from a sign company that has a 28 page contract for a $2,500 sign.
Those others are financing purchases with interest and other people's money involved... financing you while you buy something and that's totally different from someone not paying you for something on the spot and one doesn't know diddly about collecting their money due them.
Possibly, if your contract had 30 payments and over a certain period of time, you might have a point, but not a slam/dunk cash deal. It's supposed to be paid according to the terms in your quote/invoice and if you don't collect.... it's a void contract. Now, you need the courts to do your dirty work.
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signmeup
New Member
Originally Posted by signmeup
The only flaw in the plan is if they say "keep it". Then what?
The only flaw in the plan is if they say "keep it". Then what?
If you have half down and they refuse to pay you have some legal hope of getting the other half. If you repo the sign and say "pay up!" and they say "keep it" you have no such option. You could counter with "or else!" I suppose.....
GypsyGraphics
New Member
i was interrupted yesterday in the middle of posting and lost it. i haven't thoroughly read all the recent post so forgive me if this has already been suggested.
i seems to me putting in writing an untruth, such as emergency repairs, might not be a good idea. if it came down to a legal matter and you had to prove your reason for removing a sign... the "emergency repair" clause would like a contrived loop hole?
what if you added to your contract a clause that clearly states permission to access the property during all stages of the project from site planing to completion. defining completion not as installation but, any subsequent modification or work deemed necessary till final payment has be received.
essentially just giving you ownership of your work and access to it until THEY own it.
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