Talk about Avery Film

[formanek]

And if or when it fails they will offer to reimburse you $8-$10 an hour for removal...shop rate right? LOL

No more than I would expect it from any other product I buy in my life. Not just including "art" supplies. Buying products is a risk. When your new car breaks down they don't pay you for lost wages not being able to get to work do they? Nope. I can also tell you that HUGE manufacturing companies like Winnebago have used Avery Dennison products for years. My personal knowledge is from well over 20 years ago as my father was in charge of the paint/vinyl line there. When I got into the skinz business I asked him about them as a company and he assured me every product has issues. 3m as well. The thing that has never been brought up is where did people buy the stock from? Was it fresh or did it sit in some warehouse for years?

This crap is like watching the Presidental debate. Nothing will change. I am just in the mood to debate I guess. I will drop it. Back to creating art instead of arguing over this again. Sorry.

 

[formanek]

No it sounds like Oracal is doing right by their customers. So far anyway.

Look I'm sure things get lost in translation on these forums. So I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if you say you have "mixed feelings". But you sound like your doubtful of what some of us are saying. I'm certainly not going to bend over backwards and try to convince you, formanek or anyone else that our company and many other sign shops had a real nightmare of a time dealing with this company and their products. Do the research. After you're done, if you still think we are making mountains out of molehills, then fine, do your thing. Keep in mind we on this forum won't benefit or be harmed by your decision. Our advice is unconditional. Your distributors, the folks teaching wrap classes... they are salesmen trying to sell a product.

 

[HulkSmash]

i'm unbiased in the matter.

Avery installs the easiest. But it also has a problem with sticking in channels because the tack is so low. Oracal 3751 would be a bit more difficult to install, but once you get the hang of it, you'll install it faster than any other vinyl. Even though 3m and I have been on opposite sides of the rope for the past few months, you can't deny they make a nice product. 180cv3. Inconsistent.. but nice. Also with Avery in the past i was getting a lot of contaminated rolls..but they said they fixed the issue.

and this is the truth - i feel oracal can take more heat, and handle wrinkles better. IF you get a wrinkle in 3m or avery, and you press it out most of the time you can see a stress mark where the wrinkle was. Oracal doesn't do that - it completely disappears. No primer needed for channels. Oracal also has a longer warranty then all the other wrap vinyls. Keep that in mind.

 

[jkdbjj]

No it sounds like Oracal is doing right by their customers. So far anyway.

Look I'm sure things get lost in translation on these forums. So I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if you say you have "mixed feelings". But you sound like your doubtful of what some of us are saying. I'm certainly not going to bend over backwards and try to convince you, formanek or anyone else that our company and many other sign shops had a real nightmare of a time dealing with this company and their products. Do the research. After you're done, if you still think we are making mountains out of molehills, then fine, do your thing. Keep in mind we on this forum won't benefit or be harmed by your decision. Our advice is unconditional. Your distributors, the folks teaching wrap classes... they are salesmen trying to sell a product.

To clarify Joe, my mixed feelings are a result of this forum. I do not doubt what you all are saying at all.
My mixed feelings concern:

• will Avery do better and have they changed their ways?

• maybe some sign shops were compensated better during the fiasco, and perhaps Avery did spend a ton of money addressing the issue, but didn't satisfy everyone or anyone

• There is always two sides to a story, and I only know a portion of each side

• The material was quite amazing to work with, but maybe so is 3751. Though I have heard removing a complete backing on Oracal makes it a pain to work with.

And finally I am going to be spending more and more money on wrap material now, so I am making decisions based on different factors, obviously the seed planted from the comments on this forums stuck in me.

 

[jkdbjj]

i'm unbiased in the matter.

Avery installs the easiest. But it also has a problem with sticking in channels because the tack is so low. Oracal 3751 would be a bit more difficult to install, but once you get the hang of it, you'll install it faster than any other vinyl. Even though 3m and I have been on opposite sides of the rope for the past few months, you can't deny they make a nice product. 180cv3. Inconsistent.. but nice. Also with Avery in the past i was getting a lot of contaminated rolls..but they said they fixed the issue.

and this is the truth - i feel oracal can take more heat, and handle wrinkles better. IF you get a wrinkle in 3m or avery, and you press it out most of the time you can see a stress mark where the wrinkle was. Oracal doesn't do that - it completely disappears. No primer needed for channels. Oracal also has a longer warranty then all the other wrap vinyls. Keep that in mind.

Thanks that was super helpful.
It confirmed Avery is super easy to install.
I have used Oracal for years on other products and I love their stuff. I may make the effort to learn on 3751.
I get a free roll of supercast 75 ft and lam. Going to wrap my new van with it.
However, I believe I will start practicing with the Oracal as well.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Thanks Fred. I can understand that. What do you think of business that continue to support Avery? Just curious. Do you think they have no principles?

I work hard at not judging others. If I feel like I have something to add to a discussion, then I do so. In this case, it is to inform others should they care about the ethics of their suppliers. If that translates into a loss of revenue for Avery, that is collateral damage. My purpose is to call out wrongdoing and present the truth as i see it so that others can take it into account and make their own choices going forward.

If you were about to hire Jerry Sandusky as a babysitter for your boys, would you like it if your neighbors knew his history and remained silent?

 

[jkdbjj]

If you were about to hire Jerry Sandusky as a babysitter for your boys, would you like it if your neighbors knew his history and remained silent?

priceless!

 

[johnnysigns]

I've switched most of my wraps to the same stuff Justin used in that class and quite frankly I've been impressed with how nice it's stayed in place. I'm eager to try the Oracal 3751 though.

 

[Vital Designs]

i'm unbiased in the matter.

Avery installs the easiest. But it also has a problem with sticking in channels because the tack is so low. Oracal 3751 would be a bit more difficult to install, but once you get the hang of it, you'll install it faster than any other vinyl. Even though 3m and I have been on opposite sides of the rope for the past few months, you can't deny they make a nice product. 180cv3. Inconsistent.. but nice. Also with Avery in the past i was getting a lot of contaminated rolls..but they said they fixed the issue.

and this is the truth - i feel oracal can take more heat, and handle wrinkles better. IF you get a wrinkle in 3m or avery, and you press it out most of the time you can see a stress mark where the wrinkle was. Oracal doesn't do that - it completely disappears. No primer needed for channels. Oracal also has a longer warranty then all the other wrap vinyls. Keep that in mind.

Couldn't have said it better... Another thing that doesn't get mentioned is the fact that oracal has a slightly thicker backing. This is important to me because when you roll large areas it is less likely to buckle the vinyl.

 

[Techman]

You all need to friggin' give up on the Avery whining from years ago.

Nope, never. Many of us will whine till the day we die. I stood there and took the pipe while they denied the roll of vinyl that shrank 3/8 of an inch on each end. They claimed install error after their junk shrank 1/4 inch all around ruining more than a few jobs. I installed over 290 rolls of vinyl over time and never had a problem before that time frame,, nor after using other vinyls. That junk vinyl was sold all over ebay too.. It was unloaded all over the place.

They are still using that installer error cliche' to this day. Try make a claim when their reflective peels apart. That is right. It peeled apart. But who got the friggin blame? Who lost an account over it? Who had to do a friggin redo?

So go ahead and tell people to give up on the whine. Its easy to say when you never had to spend a couple hundred to fix someone else's junk.

 

[Border]

The thing that has never been brought up is where did people buy the stock from? Was it fresh or did it sit in some warehouse for years?

Was brought up for sure....
I had several different colors, and some white reflective also, FAIL MISERABLY. Several that were drop shipped directly from Avery, with receipts to prove it.

 

[Techman]

some white reflective also, FAIL MISERABLY

You are not the only one.

 

[gabagoo]

So no 3m, no Avery, so Oracal is King?
This sounds all a lil emotional to be honest.

Again, was there a class action, and if not why?

there's still ARLON!!!!

 

[Border]

The part that pissed me off (and probably many others who had issues) was how they stonewalled it, kept saying they were sending someone out to look at it asap, etc.
All the while I was trying to remedy the situation with my clients as fast as possible while they became even more agitated. In the end, Avery just said "F" you and send out more BAD VINYL as an attempt at "compensation".

Many colors had the same issues and came from various sources. They still insisted user error and even went as far as to tell me once that my company was frankly not big enough for them to worry about when I told them I would no longer use their products.

That was their worst mistake... I started a little website that many of you here came to know quite well. I ran it for several years, even about two years after Avery sent me several thousand dollars and pleaded for me to take it down.
It gave me great pleasure to deal with their concerns about as eagerly as they dealt with mine.

Reasons like this are why many of us here are so adamant about not using their products now or ever if we can avoid it, even if they end up making the very best material some day.

It's about principal and business ethics, plain and simple. Avery knew that they had the corporate money to withstand the bad rap and that eventually more newcomers would come along and start using their products again.

I don't really care anymore if anyone else wants to use their products, but I will defend my stance when anyone speaks up and tries to say it may have been my fault somehow or that I need to quit whining about it.

 

[sar bossier]

To the OP: We have used Oracal 3951, 3751, Arlon, 3m ij180cv3, and Avery 1005 EZRS, with appropriate lams. Our first shop truck was wrapped with 3751, 290 lam (Oracal) our current shop truck (dodge Ram) is wrapped with 1005 EZRS, and 1360 lam. My only complaint with the Avery was the slight discoloration on the front hood piece (complex curve). Other than that, it went down great, and with post heat, still looks as good as it did the day we finished it (about 6-7 months ago). As Colorado stated, Oracal is a little more aggressive, thereby slightly more difficult to apply, but once you get the hang of it, it is fantastic stuff. We carry both Avery and Oracal. Still have a little 3m left, but will not use supplies from a direct competitor, I feel 3m is unethical in competing with us, and selling vinyl at the same time.

Just my $.02

 

[Jr Douglas Imaging]

I get a free roll of supercast 75 ft and lam. Going to wrap my new van with it.
.

This is why Avery is out. I got the "free roll" of Avery Supercast with Lam. wrapped our shop truck and are taking it off because it looks so bad. Its been on for only about a year and a half. The base film may be ok But the lam completely crapped out.

I should have taken more pics prior but this is all thats left today

 

[HulkSmash]

This is why Avery is out. I got the "free roll" of Avery Supercast with Lam. wrapped our shop truck and are taking it off because it looks so bad. Its been on for only about a year and a half. The base film may be ok But the lam completely crapped out.

I should have taken more pics prior but this is all thats left today

that looks like fall out damage...

 

[SignManiac]

Avery smells pretty.

 

[jayhawksigns]

Reasons like this are why many of us here are so adamant about not using their products now or ever if we can avoid it, even if they end up making the very best material some day.

It's about principal and business ethics, plain and simple.

Exactly the same feelings here. We didn't get burned too bad with the bad vinyl issue but it was enough that we don't use them anymore.

Know that 3M is doing the wrap thing now, but a few years back Avery was selling products designed so that you "didn't have to go to that expensive sign shop in town". Their words as accurately as I can remember.

 

[Border]

This is why Avery is out. I got the "free roll" of Avery Supercast with Lam. wrapped our shop truck and are taking it off because it looks so bad. Its been on for only about a year and a half. The base film may be ok But the lam completely crapped out.

I should have taken more pics prior but this is all thats left today

that's nasty