Johnny Best
Active Member
you sound like the customer who bought his wife along for the decision making.
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van lettering should i go with the molding line or use a level?
- Thread starter CENTERVILLE SIGNS
- Start date
you sound like the customer who bought his wife along for the decision making.
Johnny Best
Active Member
just read where the Nort Pole is shifting towards Russia. You might want to throw that little bit of information in to confuse them even more.
gabagoo
New Member
This issue seems to be getting more difficult as cargo vehicles have some pretty funky lines on them now. The worse part about it is that you fiddle around on one side taping and re-taping and standing back to get a good view and then you make the decision to go with what you have....Then you go to the other side and everything is now reversed...sometimes if the company name is in upper and lower case it can make it look even worse. I sometimes wonder if I am going to have to rip it all off if the customer objects to it, but I must be good at it as I have not ever had any redo's
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I've always been big into vehicle lettering of all kinds for over 40 years. Never had a complaint, so-to-speak.
So, back in about 1986, had a company ask me to do 3 of their vans. I was doing their sign work for about 2 or 3 years already, but they got a new designer who insisted on laying everything out for me and I was to follow her directions to a 'T'. Before starting them, I told her the pictured van wasn't at all like the trucks they brought in. She had used some generic template. Remember this was mid 80's. No google, no internet no nothing, but your own stuff. I cautioned her about body lines, roof lines and such things making things look off and she said, just do what I gave you. Alright. We did them and about 2 days later, the vice president and her brought the trucks back and asked me to explain why we did the lettering all crooked and sh!t. I showed them the pictures and compared them to the vehicles right in front of us. The guy said, why would you put them on crooked ?? I said, because I was given the wrong drawings and told to follow these explicitly. The guy looked at the girl and said, is that so ?? She said NO, I told him to make it look good and he didn't follow my instructions. She lied right to his face, made me look like the bad guy and he demanded I remove it all and do it over. I said, ya know what, let her do it. I told her this was gonna happen and she set me up, so get 'em fixed somewhere else. They never did fix them and as other vehicles were done, no 2 looked alike, like I was told they had to. This company today, which was one of the largest in the county, since around 1910, has been bankrupt and gone since the early 2000's. No idea whatever happened to the princess, but suffice it to say, I highly doubt she's designing anything.
So, back in about 1986, had a company ask me to do 3 of their vans. I was doing their sign work for about 2 or 3 years already, but they got a new designer who insisted on laying everything out for me and I was to follow her directions to a 'T'. Before starting them, I told her the pictured van wasn't at all like the trucks they brought in. She had used some generic template. Remember this was mid 80's. No google, no internet no nothing, but your own stuff. I cautioned her about body lines, roof lines and such things making things look off and she said, just do what I gave you. Alright. We did them and about 2 days later, the vice president and her brought the trucks back and asked me to explain why we did the lettering all crooked and sh!t. I showed them the pictures and compared them to the vehicles right in front of us. The guy said, why would you put them on crooked ?? I said, because I was given the wrong drawings and told to follow these explicitly. The guy looked at the girl and said, is that so ?? She said NO, I told him to make it look good and he didn't follow my instructions. She lied right to his face, made me look like the bad guy and he demanded I remove it all and do it over. I said, ya know what, let her do it. I told her this was gonna happen and she set me up, so get 'em fixed somewhere else. They never did fix them and as other vehicles were done, no 2 looked alike, like I was told they had to. This company today, which was one of the largest in the county, since around 1910, has been bankrupt and gone since the early 2000's. No idea whatever happened to the princess, but suffice it to say, I highly doubt she's designing anything.
Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?
New Member
The problem with that for me is I often install on site and can be forced to work in a tighter space than usual, making it difficult, if not impossible to step back and check your work.
Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?
New Member
I use a digital level from Craftsman . I have the 1 foot and 2 foot models. Just hit the zero button and it calibrates to any surface you want to work off of for reference.
Eforcer
Sign Up!
I've never used a level. I place it around the area that needs the info, step back at least 15-20 ft. and make that decision from there. If tires are low at one end or contour of vehicles all can contribute to being leveled. JMO Not saying this is the best way, but it's worked so far...
kcollinsdesign
Old member
Great demonstration! It is easy to see that version B has the best harmony with the vehicle. The text lines up with the bottom of the vehicle, the lower trim molding, and the bottom of the window. Version C just looks like somebody just stuck it on by eye - it is a compromise and just looks amateurish. Version A is just a stupid mistake.
Show that to a customer, and they might choose version C because it "somewhat" lines up with the body panel indent. Then you will need to explain that a diagramatic representation will not represent the overall look of the final representation necause it emphasizes different details and the image is isolated from any kind of environment. Furthermore, the client has little criteria for judging how a graphic presentation should look, and tend to look at the most obvious things (such as how a graphic lines up with the nearest element of the diagram and small details in the design). Out in the wild, people will view the graphic outside of the context of the vehicle, and the relationship to the vehicle would be a very secondary observation.
kcollinsdesign
Old member
I only use a level for internal consistency if I have seperate elements that must be installed. If I have a one piece graphic, I try to find the "effective" horizontal (sort of like a horizontal "vector" that is informed by all the horizontal elements of the vehicle, including its stance).
Back in the day, I would line up the vinyl graphic (or pounce pattern or guidelines) totally by eye, noting whether the vehicle was on a level surface, and whether underinflated tires or a standard load would effect its stance. It's essentially the same process I use today, except I can now use vehicle templates and digital graphics to establish the positioning of the graphic prior to the install. I saw a lot of vehicles done by others with graphics that didn't line up with each other; that is when I started using a level to maintain internal consistency within the graphics (using the position of the bubble to transfer the "effective" horizontal - using an adjustable level just made it easier).
The whole process is easier to do than explain. When you get it right, you know it (sort of like focusing a camera). The closer you get, the worse it looks until suddenly it all lines up and the graphics read as a whole and "pop" from the vehicle.
rydods
Member for quite some time.
I used a level once and ended up having to re-do the entire van. Now (Like Johnny Best's picture) I use one of the most level looking body lines and pick somewhere in between this line and level, stand back and if it looks good, I know the customer will be happy. Level means nothing if it doesn't look straight.
eahicks
Magna Cum Laude - School of Hard Knocks
NEVER use a level on a vehicle unless you are 1000% certain you are installing the graphics on the vehicle on a 1000% level surface. We fight with this all the time, especially with the way new vans are made. We have a customer with over 100 fleet vehicles, most are Dodge Promaster City vans. Sloped body lines all over this thing. The bulk of the text we measure off the ground to get it "level". Some of it looks crooked in comparison to the body lines, but that is the conclusion we came to with the customer and the installers. So from a far distance, it all looks level, but up close, if you measure everything, nothing is level to any line at all on the van (except maybe the rear door lettering). Makes for a longer install too.
bannertime
Active Member
We start by doing the layout in the computer. Either using photos of the customer's vehicle or using a template sized to match the measurements we take. That's when we decide if we need to go with body lines or not. We typically decide, but if it's an either/or situation we let the customer pick. Then we'll take measurements to known points and use those to lay the graphics out. Some times we'll do a main line of text or art and measure from the bottom of the vehicle using a measuring tape. Then we'll use it for the rest of the measurements. Of course, being able to take a step back and asses the situation is very important.
You can use a level, especially one with a digital readout to match angles, but you can't use it to simply "level" the bubble to middle of the dial. You have to match the readout from the angle.
You can use a level, especially one with a digital readout to match angles, but you can't use it to simply "level" the bubble to middle of the dial. You have to match the readout from the angle.
kcollinsdesign
Old member
You "anti-level" guys are pretty adamant. 1000%? You should really try it!
It is a bad idea, however, to establish a reference horizontal using a level (for all the reasons the "anti-level" crowd have explained). I only use one (an adjustable level) after I have established a reference horizontal by sight, and want to create a consistent layout with usually seperate lines of text and/or geometric graphics. Without a level (adjustable preferred), it can be difficult to get all the elements to line up with each other. You can easily end up with lines of text that are at different angles to each other, which will often compromise the impact of the overall design.
It is a bad idea, however, to establish a reference horizontal using a level (for all the reasons the "anti-level" crowd have explained). I only use one (an adjustable level) after I have established a reference horizontal by sight, and want to create a consistent layout with usually seperate lines of text and/or geometric graphics. Without a level (adjustable preferred), it can be difficult to get all the elements to line up with each other. You can easily end up with lines of text that are at different angles to each other, which will often compromise the impact of the overall design.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
.
In the famous words of Toad, "thanks for reinforcing my point."
But I'll level with you... You have a halfway correct point.
See what I did there?
McDonald Signs
McDonald Signs & Graphics
I usually measure up from the bottom of the van body in two places midway up on the van, chalk a line between the two marks down the length of the van sides, then measure and make everything on the van level with the chalkline
Geneva Olson
Expert Storyteller
We use a ruler and measure from a consistent part of the vehicle. Like say, the window.. So measure from the bottom of the window to the top of the graphic. It SHOULD be the same on the front as the back.
If I'm reading this right, what you are saying is you don't use a level to put graphics on a van to true level. You establish what is the best looking angle to be the horizontal element according to the lines and rake of the van, and then use a tool to keep it consistent.
bannertime
Active Member
That would be the correct way of using a level to do vehicle graphics. It works really well with a digital read out level.