Vinyl Lettering Coming Off

[petepaz]

I hear ya. Guess I'm coming from a different point of view.
​

I'm not saying it for the need of what length of time someone needs a job to last or how it's gonna be used..... but from the standpoint of inventory.

When we screen printed heavily back in the day... I was always disgusted of how many blacks we had to stock in order to print to plastics, Cor-X, paper products, enamel and multi- this and that colors.

I'd have 5 or 6 blacks on the shelf at any given time and had to have it according to what job came down the pike..... and it spilled into the whites, yellows, greens and so many other basic colors. We could mix our own custom colors, but then we exhausted that particular type and had to replace a basic color again.

Now, why should I stock 3 or 4 levels of black, red, green, blue or any other colors and have money sitting on the shelves and not in my pocket ??

If you were a high-volume shop, perhaps you'd go through it all fast enough it didn't matter, but even so, if you stock a low grade vinyl in a few basic colors for low end work, you'd have one cost. Then stock the high end and not have all the in-between levels sitting on your shelf rotting away ?? So it costs 65¢ more to do a job site sign then if you had the other stuff on hand, but your inventory costs are still gonna be lower.

Toady, we don't have that problem. We have printers and flatbeds and worry about head heights more than pennies in vinyl to do a job. However, we still do a ton of die-cut for many of the vehicles we do. We have maybe 80 or 90 rolls of H/P vs about 30 or 40 low end [intermediate] for the low end signs. We also keep translucents, refelctive, gold-leafs and specialty vinyls like spreckeld, diamond plate, gradients, etched mosaics and some other crazy chit.

and i agree with your point also. we have like 4 shelving units with 5 shelves filled with silk screen ink (craziness) but i think with the digital days you can get your materials so quick you don't have to stock your shelves with so many materials you just order per job and keep a few items that you use alot in stock. as you do more and more jobs your stock grows but you are saving money along the way. you can order smaller rolls of vinyl for a job unlike some of the inks you can only buy a gallon then you use a qt. or less then the rest sits on the shelf.

 

[Gino]

I agree with this 100% except for price.... roll of int. vinyl....is like 95..compared to HP - 400

I was figuring a 30" x 10 yd roll price. Most people here tend to buy for what they need only to do a job and don't tuck anything away for stock.... and that's your gravy.

Just about everything we buy is 30" for die-cut and 54" & 60" for digital printing.

 

[OldPaint]

in the world of vinyl cutting, a roll of 24" X 300" intermediate is $75-90. where as a same roll of hp same size is $280.00. BUT when i need HP i only buy it buy 10 yd rolls.
the reason i go with large rolls of intermediate in basic colors, white, black, red, blue, green & yelloware those "right now" jobs people come in to have done or for banners, and coro signs i do for baseball/football. for the money spent intermediate covers more jobs and i still make the same money as HP...... but have a lot more material to make profit with)))))

 

[gabagoo]

I use, for the most part 2ml cast for all vehicles, simply because I have seen vehicles around with calendered graphics.
Easy to spot...usually there is an outline of black around all the lettering from the shrinkage and all the dirt that sticks to the exposed glue.

I have also seen what looked like a textured pattern on vinyl but on close inspection was calendered vinyl all shrinking and tearing itself apart.

I do agree that in some cases it can be used...short term needs or for cheapskates!!

Now ironically I know calendered can last far longer than it is rated for, especially black.
I have this aluminum sign on my shop back door that faces due south and it has black oracal 651 on it and it is still looking good with no detectable shrinkage and no cracking.....I put the sign up in 2002...go figure

 

[royster13]

usually there is an outline of black around all the lettering from the shrinkage and all the dirt that sticks to the exposed glue

Great reason to avoid 651 (or the even worse clones).....

 

[TyrantDesigner]

You letter Propane & Fuel Oil trucks w/ calendared vinyl?

Shame on you...

Anyhow,
How about a pic of the edges if you want more info on your issue.


.

This. +1

 

[Newmansign]

There could be something to this. When I was hand lettering back in the day I would occasionally run into a truck paint job in which the painter was apparently getting fish eyes. Instead of properly cleaning the surface they used an old painting trick of adding some liquid silicone (Smoothie: fish eye eliminator) in the paint.

My One-Shot would fish eye like crazy on this painted surface. The only answer I had for it was to add some Smoothie to my paint. That would take care of the fish eye problem but I waited to see if there would be durability problems. It never came up.

But once I ran into a job that had so much Smoothie in it that I couldn't defeat the fish eyes regardless what I did. My lettering failed within a year of my painting it. I tried to patch it but with the silicone I used the first time I couldn't get the next coat to adhere worth a crap without a ton of fish eyes. Luckily I was good friends with the truck owner and he admitted the original paint job on the truck was done very cheaply. He accepted my explanation since I'd lettered several of his trucks through the years and they were all holding up very well.

I don't know if a highly "siliconized" paint film would cause adhesion problems with vinyl but I don't doubt that it would. It makes for a very slippery surface.

Probably not your issue but it's the first thing I thought of when I read the problem. Of course, if the painter did in fact use a lot of silicone in his paint he's not about to admit it. Odd that it happened on only one side of each unit. Perhaps the trailers were parked facing opposite directions and the surfaces facing one direction got contaminated making the use of Smoothie necessary.

It's highly unlikely that this is the issue but it sounds plausible to me.

Interesting, 3M said to me that the paint might have "heavy silicone" in it after they had tested the vinyl, but they couldn't be certain. Of course the painter says he didn't do anything different than on any other truck.

 

[Newmansign]

You letter Propane & Fuel Oil trucks w/ calendared vinyl?

Shame on you...

Anyhow,
How about a pic of the edges if you want more info on your issue.


.

In my defense, I learned from the previous owner, I've had the business only 3 years, the previous owner used calendared for EVERYTHING! I was using cast on this customer's trucks and his idiot drivers would use a pressure washer to clean them and a de-greasing soap, it was like they were trying to see if they could get the vinyl off! Point it directly at the lettering and then go tell the boss the lettering was coming off
I don't think vinyl is no matter cast or calendared can endure a pressure washer at close range.

I went back to the calendared because I figured if I was fixing the vinyl after the pressure washer was killing it, why spend the extra money. I haven't had a problem with the calendared until now.

The first pic is the good side, the other 2 are the bad sides, every letter is like that.

 

[Bly]

We used to use a "premium" calendared for cut lettering until some started falling off painted plasterboard walls in one of our best client's store entries.
Now I just use cast all the time.
Thing is, sometimes you don't know where it's going to get stuck.

 

[Gino]

Do you notice how it's just at the top, even on the rounds ?? That's a pretty good indication that something is running down on these and lifting your vinyl. To me, I would think after what you just said, they have a lot of spillage and when adding degreaser to gasoline that's run all over your lettering... I'd tend to think it's 'customer failure'. You can't blast these things with high power hoses and chemicals.

.... but the sign should read ' The End '​

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

I'm also thinking it's something running over the lettering because if the failure was due to the paint or because it's calendered vinyl, I think it would've happened alot sooner than it did.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I'm with Gino and BlueFish. Even though I'm biased towards calendared ... the damage is on the tops of all the letters, got to be from something running over top of them ... doesn't take much at 60 mph with the adhesive at the edge being dissolved before it starts to flap and tear.

 

[Border]

Interesting, 3M said to me that the paint might have "heavy silicone" in it after they had tested the vinyl, but they couldn't be certain. Of course the painter says he didn't do anything different than on any other truck.

Well, it is quite possible that the guy that painted the truck may have added some Fisheye Eliminator to the paint before he sprayed it. That is pretty common practice in truck painting shops because those old dirty things are usually still somewhat contaminated with grease & oils, even after all the prep work.

If the painter was having problems with that, the fast cure is add fisheye eliminator to the paint which is basically silicone. That could have a real bad effect on any vinyl someone might want to stick to it.

Just another possibility. Ask them if they used fisheye eliminator in the paint.

 

[Newmansign]

I'm also thinking it's something running over the lettering because if the failure was due to the paint or because it's calendered vinyl, I think it would've happened alot sooner than it did.

Customer states that they hadn't even used the trailers when they noticed it was peeling. They said they weren't even washed. I verified where they had been parked and there are no trees and nothing around them. They do own a pool supply company also, they store pool chemicals in a building about 300 feet away.

 

[Newmansign]

I also want to say a big thank you to everyone's responses, this is good learning for me

 

[OldPaint]

how are they filling these truck? might be since its on ONE SIDE, they are dragging the fill hose to the top and sliding a hard heavy hose along the lettering????????????????

 

[Keith Rae]

Just a thought When the trailer was painted They would have went down one side and then the other. In painting the 2nd side they would have had over spray on the 1st. painted side. So 1 side is smooth like glass and the other has overs prayed particles on it.

 

[GAC05]

With them being parked and not used is the side that is failing getting more sun exposure over the side that still looks good?
If so, the whole thing could be bad and right now the added heat of the direct sun might just be speeding up the rate of failure on the sunny side.

Old Paint's point is a good one but if they aren't being used it's not going to fly.
Not sure of the mainland but out here in the Pacific all top loading is being banned by the EPA due to vapor recovery issues. Our tankers have to be pressure filled from the bottom up. Before this we had all kinds of graphics damage along one side at the top from them dropping the walkway gantry down and letting it hit the tank as they reloaded.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

what is the problem with using calendered vinyls? oracal 6+51 on every damn thing we do NEVER a problem! NEVER. Trucks, signs everything

Ditto. Oracal 651. 731 too thin. That may be your problem especially with such a climate change. Bo me if you want but been using 651 for 10 plus years. No problems and I live in Florida. By the new pictures, your cutomer is spilling fuel on your letters. Seen his before on a fuel truck I did for a airport. Sealed the letters with Frog Juice. No more problems.

 

[2B]

Ditto. Oracal 651. 731 too thin. That may be your problem especially with such a climate change. Bo me if you want but been using 651 for 10 plus years. No problems and I live in Florida. By the new pictures, your cutomer is spilling fuel on your letters. Seen his before on a fuel truck I did for a airport. Sealed the letters with Frog Juice. No more problems.

+1 now the pictures tell a lot and that is they need to be edge sealed