What formula do you use to quote a job?

[Gino]

Bad analogy. A sign product isn't a process occurring over some interval or another, it's a singularity, an object. The process by which it came into existence is not germane. In your analogy, the product is point B, how you arrived at point B is meaningless in this context. It's pretty much the same point B at which everyone else might have arrived.

Your product inarguably is unique. Unfortunately all other sign products are also unique. That being the case uniqueness cannot be a criteria for not being a commodity.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Orwellian notion that while they all are unique, some are more unique than others.

People who think that their product and, by extension, themselves, are special do not understand that when everyone exhibits a particular quality, then that quality cannot be used to claim specialness or superiority.

Aha................... now, I get it.

Frickin' 'A'.... you're right again


​

One step further.... can your reasoning work in reverse ?? In other words, if we have 75 shops in our town and we're all unique in that we all think we make good signs and for pretty much the same price...... can someone [a customer, or potential customer] see when something is far inferior of others... whether be it by design, color or wahtever shortcomings and make it look or appear below standards thus raising your commodity up a notch ??

 

[signmeup]

Aha................... now, I get it.

Frickin' 'A'.... you're right again


​

One step further.... can your reasoning work in reverse ?? In other words, if we have 75 shops in our town and we're all unique in that we all think we make good signs and for pretty much the same price...... can someone [a customer, or potential customer] see when something is far inferior of others... whether be it by design, color or wahtever shortcomings and make it look or appear below standards thus raising your commodity up a notch ??

Heh.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Bob, I think when you describe signs as a commodity, discounting uniqueness, that you are ignoring the obvious question of equality of the finished product. If one member of the commodity does a better job than does any other, is it still to be considered of equal value?

If in a comparison, one is read, understood and remembered at a greater rate than all others then it has separated itself (and its value) from other contenders. If it is more durable, is it not worth more and more desirable to the client?

I submit that better design and better construction, among many aspects of our craft, do contribute in a meaningful way to what is being termed as unique. And that any aspect of uniqueness that results in a better delivery of benefits to the client than other efforts is both noteworthy and adds value to the finished product.

 

[David Wright]

I believe Bob's main point is, if the customer doesn't see any unique value it really doesn't matter at all, and it doesn't.

Unique is not the same as better, improved or value added.

A two by three aluminum sign with vinyl graphics or a custom aluminum framed sign with dimensional letters. Now they have a choice and a chance for the latter to make money because we aren't comparing apples to apples.

 

[Gino]

bob means whatever he means and he had been beaten up for it and even with some minor tweaks to his definition, it still makes complete sense.

Something I've said for years and probably say 1/2 dozen times a week.......

People don't care what color the copy is, what font, how many bevels or shadows, or the proper spacing....... they are only looking for something they can read and in most cases read in a hurry and get the gist of what is needed to know on it, quickly. If a sign fails to do this, the person's mind's eye will get tired and move on to the next matter in need or question.

What takes place in doing the finest job in design, color, composition and so forth is when the subliminal takes over. If you put two signs next to each other with identical copy and one is well executed paying attention to minute details while the other is just a plain jane, more than likely... your eye will choose the pleasing one with good colors, legible copy, design and layout over the poorly made sign.

There's no reason for it, but it's like trying to sell a house, it's all in how you perceive it and the last minute impressions make that all the difference. When you want to sell a house..... you must make sure all the toilets are cleaned and flush and there are no dishes in the kitchen sink. A clean house will sell far faster than one with a well full of dirty water and a sink with last night's leftovers in it.

Same with the signs.... have a good clean appearance.... and you'll sell it before your sloppy competition and that's wherein lies the difference. How 'commodity' fits in, I don't quite know yet, but bob's answers will be being used in future sales with me. I just have to read it over and over and make it mine.

Thanks much, bob ​

 

[signmeup]

If you had a box of identical rubber balls where all but one ball was white, the non-white ball would truly be unique. If each of the balls were a different color then not a one of them would be unique because they all exhibit the same uniqueness.

Uh huh...

I felt badly that people were having trouble with ball sorting so I drew up a flash-card to make it easier.

Next time you're sorting your balls you can whip out this handy little card and have them correctly sorted in no time. Simply print a copy of the card onto some sturdy paper stock and slip it into your wallet.

(If you have a lot of balls to sort you may want to laminate the card for increased durability.)

 

[signswi]

Just for argument sake:
If you had two white balls exactly the same in every aspect you could still charge more for the one that you built up a brand and reputation and market perception that it was worth more around.

Not only does Bob discount design completely (I can only imagine his business makes mostly parking signs or something abysmally boring) but he discounts marketing completely as well. It's a great way to leave a lot of profit on the table.

 

[signmeup]

I discovered some time ago that charging more for something automatically makes it more desirable to a fairly large percentage of society. No marketing required.

 

[SignManiac]

I have two balls which are essentially the same, yet they are unique because they are attached to me.

 

[signmeup]

I have two balls which are essentially the same, yet they are unique because they are attached to me.

How often do you get them sorted Bob?

 

[Gino]

I have two balls which are essentially the same, yet they are unique because they are attached to me.

I thought you said you were divorced.... twice. :Oops:

 

[signswi]

...if everything is unique then uniqueness cannot be a factor.

Missed this. Completely invalid point and unnecessary as no one is arguing uniqueness as a selling point. The results of a good design process will always be unique to the client, job and situation otherwise they aren't design--therefor the fact that it's unique, as you say, is not a factor in price. Only a descriptive attribute. If something is designed, it cannot end up the same as any other designed object as part of design is competitive research and market positioning. The sales point isn't that it's unique, it's that it is designed well. Uniqueness may end up a desirable attribute for a particular project and then the success of the uniqueness becomes a metric in judging that it is designed well, but only one metric among many.

You've admitted yourself that you have no passion for design, and likely are not undertaking design in any real sense of the word. Why you would want to doom others to less profitability and a commodity mindset is flumuxing.

 

[bob]

...bilge indicating a lackluster education in the deductive and inductive arts mercifully deleted...

You've admitted yourself that you have no passion for design, and likely are not undertaking design in any real sense of the word. Why you would want to doom others to less profitability and a commodity mindset is flumuxing.

I never said I had no passion for design, I said I had no spiritual nor passionate investment in any particular job that comes through my shop. Big difference.

For example, if I should set something up that the client, for whatever reason or no reason at all, doesn't like, that's fine by me. I'll not waste a microsecond explaining why they should like it or just how wonderful it is. I move on to something else that might please them. It doesn't happen often, I've been at this for a long time and I'm reasonably astute at figuring out what they might be looking for before we start. But happen it does and, as I tell each and every client, be completely honest, you can't hurt my feelings, they were hung up in a closet many decades ago.

I do insist that whatever comes out of my shop be typographically correct. There I draw the line. But as far as aesthetics, it's much like the Hawaiian cannibal told his young boy: "One mans meat is another man's poi son."...rim shot...

 

[nashvillesigns]

unlucky for me, i only have to increase my sales for amount of 28 year old scotch i bought myself last month for xmas. i dunno what i am going to go about the goose island bourbon stout 1/4 keg i want this month for my birthday.. i use three dif. prices to determine what i am selling. i also gauge the customer standing in front of me. that is REALLY important. the more they cry, the higher the money pie!

 

[kymlightbox]

yes, agree with you, passion is one of most important things in and of work !!

SignManiac, Engineers can make good money and I do okay in my eyes. But there is a certian satisfaction in working for your self. My father said that "if you do somthing that you love you will never work a day in your life." Now I know that owning a business is not all roses and is alot of work but if you have a passion for what you do it can make going to work each and every day more enjoyable. Also I make a salary at my job and no matter how hard I work I take home the same income. In working for yourself your the one who determines how much money you make to an extent. Ofcourse there are many factors that contribute to how sucessful you are. But I believe that if you have a passion, drive and desire that you can be sucessful. Yeah some years I may make less and some years more and mabey I will never make what I make as an engineer but I will never know unless I try and life is too short not to try.

Sorry to get off track here on this thread I just thaught that this comment warranted a reply.

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

I have two balls which are essentially the same, yet they are unique because they are attached to me.

Your nuts.

 

[Sidney]

Pricing to make money

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[Sidney]

New "how to" Video Library coming soon

New "how to" Video Library coming soon.

 

[Sidney]

New GSE Sign Estimating Videos

Hello Everyone,

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[decalman]

My dilemma is not figuring my hourly wage or expenses, but trying to predict how many hours a project will consume.