What formula do you use to quote a job?

[Locals Find!]

Take your actual cost of materials add 40% + your time spent doing the artwork (Hourly Rate)+Commission (Yours or Salesman's) = Base

Take your base then markup for your market average on the product.

Don't try to get rich on every little job. Too many shops I see try to get rich on every job. You can't do it. Don't try to make your rent the first of the month off one coroplast job.

I figure on how much I need to sell of my cheapest product to make my overhead at the market price and bust my butt to do just that. Amazingly when I do that the big money jobs just float on in. They may call wanting that cheap 1 color coroplast but, end up buying the Full Color MDO site sign that they really need with the artwork they really wanted.

Signs aren't a commodity anymore. The Artwork is the only true commodity in today's marketplace. The client wants cheap signs with Outstanding artwork. Clients will pay for good art but never a good sign unfortunately. Sell em what they want. You can't go wrong.

 

[Dave Drane]

Time + material + who its for....

 

[john1]

Time + material + who its for....

Yep. Selling to a trucking company would be more than selling to a single person off the street most likely. Don't hate me, It's business lol

 

[ravitan]

woo a lot of english going on hear
i just wanter to say
our job combaind hi tec skills loke softwaer issu digital machins , design skills and marketing knowleg, tecnical skills working whith electricity, drills cement wood tin ect+ the risk issu going up lebber's on roofs hanging and every day its a new thing new sign differnt grafhic or tecnolego to use
i dont see any sing makers that get thilty rich or feling that the get a liqer profit out of the job even in big projects

 

[visual800]

Every job is different. i see all these formulas and programs that figure out what you should charge, call it harheaded but I dont and have never used them. I think they have unrealistic values.

I charge what I charge based on the job, my attitude at the time, how bad i may need the job, or I may be too busy to accept it, you never know. You may have spent 3 hourse designing a sign that was only $100. Who knows?

 

[Joe Diaz]

Signs are a fungible commodity. One can be substituted for another and maintain identical functionality.

You couldn't be more wrong. A Sign that is equal in size and materials but is poorly designed would be harder to read and less attractive among other things. Therefore that sign's functionality is less than the functionality of a better designed sign.

A sign that is the same size and materials, but is built poorly compared to the other, will not last as long. Therefore that signs functionality is less than the functionality of a better built sign.

The whole problem with this "signs = commodities" point of view is there are far too many in our own industry that believe it to be true. They tend to be people who don't see the value of quality and experience. If there are people in our own industry that can't see that, how do we as an industry expect to educate the public that not all signs are created equal.

So to fight this at our shop, I have found that it is much easier separate design and signs as a service and also in how we price them because it is easier for the average person to see the difference in the quality and value of designs across the market than it is for them to see the difference in the quality and value of signs.

 

[bob]

You couldn't be more wrong. A Sign that is equal in size and materials but is poorly designed would be harder to read and less attractive among other things. Therefore that sign's functionality is less than the functionality of a better designed sign.

A straw man argument. Signs that say or indicate the same thing in the same way are functional identities.

A sign that is the same size and materials, but is built poorly compared to the other, will not last as long. Therefore that signs functionality is less than the functionality of a better built sign.

Yet Another straw man. Signs that say or indicate the same thing in the same way are functional identities.

Going off into a frenzy of rationalization about just how special you think you and your work might be, does not alter the fungibility of functionally identical signs.

Moreover, it matters not a whit that you think your work is somehow special, all the patron wants is to say or indicate something without undue obsessing over any artistic and/or spiritual qualities of the work.

Explicitly charging for ordinary design is either an attempt at a bit of larceny or an effort to assuage an overheated ego. Ordinary design meaning laying out the sign.

You can keep telling yourself that you're in the design business and how special you just know you are but that does not make it so. Ordinary design, such as it might be, is something that you do on your way to making a sign. Not any more or less important than any other step needed to produce the final product.

 

[Joe Diaz]

A straw man argument. Signs that say or indicate the same thing in the same way are functional identities.

Yet Another straw man. Signs that say or indicate the same thing in the same way are functional identities.

It's not straw man... I am responding to exactly what you said. We are talking about signs being commodities here. Your point is ridiculous to say the least. It's silly to assume that signs created by different sign makers throughout a given market will indicate the same thing in the exact same way. Therefore, It is far more realistic to say that they can indicate the same thing but in different ways.

Going off into a frenzy of rationalization about just how special you think you and your work might be...

You see that would be a staw man. No one here is doing that. I was simply pointing out not all signs are created equal. A concept you seem to have a hard time getting today. I said nothing about my work.

Moreover, it matters not a whit that you think your work is somehow special, all the patron wants is to say or indicate something without undue obsessing over any artistic and/or spiritual qualities of the work.

I disagree. We are not the cheapest in our local and surrounding markets, yet our company has been in business 30+ years. Don't confuse that as me saying we are somehow special because of that. We aren't, countless other businesses in our industry are in the same boat. And that is because there are customers out there willing to pay more for their shop of choice to go beyond just spitting out what the client wants it to say.

Explicitly charging for ordinary design is either an attempt at a bit of larceny or an effort to assuage an overheated ego. Ordinary design meaning laying out the sign.

You would be right if every sign had an "ordinary design", but since not every sign does you are wrong... again. As signmeup pointed out, you yourself said:
"If you can't see the difference in layout, execution, and resulting elegance between something cranked out on a computer and work by a journeyman sign writer, you have no business being in this business."

You can keep telling yourself that you're in the design business and how special you just know you are but that does not make it so.

Quit acting like a complete child. You can call it the "frazzle dazzle business" if it makes you feel better. I enjoy doing what I do, and I make a good living doing it.

Ordinary design, such as it might be, is something that you do on your way to making a sign. Not any more or less important than any other step needed to produce the final product.

Good advice for pursuing mediocrity in this business.

 

[signmeup]

Joe... I think bob is saying that "identical signs" are the same and should fetch the same price regardless of who made them. You've got to get up pretty early to get one past bob.

 

[Si Allen]

Hmmmmmmmmm .... I wonder how Sign Maniac gets those high prices?


Could it be because his designs and execution look so much better than just letters stuck on a board?

How about Joe Chips? Do his meticulously carved and painted signs deserve to be called a commodity?

Noobs and hacks sell letters on a board cheap. True sign people sell signs that are appropriate for a particular business and set them apart from the hum drum cheapos.

I started my business as a full time shop 44 years ago ... and avoided the "knock them out cheap" kind of business. That set me apart from the rest of the local sign shops ... and guess what ... never had to worry about where my next job was coming from!

So ... if you want to compete with the bottom feeders, be my guest! NOT my idea of a business plan!

 

[Joe Diaz]

Joe... I think bob is saying that "identical signs" are the same and should fetch the same price regardless of who made them. You've got to get up pretty early to get one past bob.

He very well could be, but what would be the point of making that statement? It doesn't prove anything. Of course Identical signs are the same. Identical fill in any specialty good or service would be the same. Simply pointing this out doesn't automatically make that good or service a commodity when not all are created the same.

 

[signmeup]

He very well could be, but what would be the point of making that statement? It doesn't prove anything. Of course Identical signs are the same. Identical fill in any specialty good or service would be the same. Simply pointing this out doesn't automatically make that good or service a commodity when not all are created the same.

You would have to ask bob.

 

[bob]

He very well could be, but what would be the point of making that statement? It doesn't prove anything. Of course Identical signs are the same. Identical fill in any specialty good or service would be the same. Simply pointing this out doesn't automatically make that good or service a commodity when not all are created the same.

That would be functionally identical, the basis for the very concept of fungibility.
Functionally identical does not necessarily mean physically identical. The more special you think that you and your product might be, the more trouble you'll probably have dealing with the concept.

 

[Joe Diaz]

That would be functionally identical, the basis for the very concept of fungibility.
Functionally identical does not necessarily mean physically identical.

Signs created by different sign makers are NOT all functionally identical. They are not fungible. Back to my earlier point: given the same rough guidelines (my sign needs to say this... my sign needs to be this big...etc...) The sign maker with more experience and who demonstrates a greater aptitude to create higher quality products will create a longer lasting sign with a more effective design, than the sign maker who does not possess those traits. Therefore the functionality of that sign is different. That sign maker can sell that sign for more and still be competitive rather than compete on price alone which is what all sign makers would need to do in a commodity market.

So signs are not all commodities. Signs are specialty goods created by a specialty service. We know this because in this industry we have evidence that a sign shop can thrive even when having much higher prices than its competition.

The more special you think that you and your product might be, the more trouble you'll probably have dealing with the concept.

Which explains why you have trouble dealing with most concepts. Since the undertone of the last several responses has been an attempt to discredit my point of view by painting me as all hype with no substance (which is kind of ironic coming from you), Then just take me out of the equation all together. It doesn't change the fact that some shops build better products than others and some sign shops build worst products than others.

 

[signmeup]

You're wasting your time Joe. bob is unable to grasp the concept because he is unable to produce anything special himself.

 

[bob]

I said...

The more special you think that you and your product might be, the more trouble you'll probably have dealing with the concept.

To which you replied, in part...

...Which explains why you have trouble dealing with most concepts. Since the undertone of the last several responses has been an attempt to discredit my point of view by painting me as all hype with no substance (which is kind of ironic coming from you), Then just take me out of the equation all together. It doesn't change the fact that some shops build better products than others and some sign shops build worst products than others.

I respond: QED

 

[Joe Diaz]

Typical bob. When left with nothing of value to add to your side of an argument you fall back on your predictable bull that no one will agree with you because they don't understand, not because in fact you are completely wrong.

 

[signmeup]

I said...


To which you replied, in part...



I respond: QED

It's not proven. You are wrong. You just won't admit it.

 

[HulkSmash]

I love how bob uses intelligent lyrical nonsense on a sign board to try to make his points sound more valid and have a stand. Unfortunately I've never really seen it work for him.
How does someone have a conversation with him without slapping him in person is beyond me.

 

[HulkSmash]

Signs are a fungible commodity. One can be substituted for another and maintain identical functionality.

What an ignorant statement.

Try looking for a NON lit gas station sign, in the middle of nowhere, at 3 am.

So much for identical functionality.