When a potential client begins to introduce a new project.

[Notarealsignguy]

It's great to ask these questions, give me the goal and let me figure out the best path to get there. Problem is, many people are dumb as dirt and won't be able to properly use the information that they spend the time gathering. Not being rude but its reality.
Going back to the annoying sales rep scenario here, if you are going to start going down that road, you had better make sure you REALLY know what you are doing and talking about. Otherwise, you become a very annoying twit. We have all had these types of reps. Some people are just better off running their business based on doing exactly what the customer tells them to do.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Jester11667,
This is exactly the kind of feedback I have been hoping for all day. You are a breath of fresh air and I appreciate it. Your "What are you trying to accomplish with this sign?" is a wonderful improvement. Certainly, there may be very limited times when it is an appropriate question. But, when it is appropriate, all I am looking for is that sign makers have it ready for their use.
Robert Armerding

Guess you were not listening too well when I posted that.

 

[Robert Armerding]

"What are you trying to accomplish with this sign?" is always relevant, but not always worth the extra time. Which,I have many examples of going over and above when the value isn't obvious can be worth it.

Jester1167
What if I where to ask you, "Jester, what do you think I am trying to accomplish here on s101?" If you would rather not answer my question, no problem.
Robert Armerding

 

[Robert Armerding]

Guess you were not listening too well when I posted that.

Texas_Signmaker,
Please go back and look at my response when you posted that. From my own perspective, the way Jester1167 entered the discussion has been helpful in my struggle to find a way to effectively reach out to the s101 crowd. For me, there is a difference between someone trying to tear me down and someone trying to lift me up. Just my way of looking at things.
Robert Armerding

 

[Robert Armerding]

It's great to ask these questions, give me the goal and let me figure out the best path to get there. Problem is, many people are dumb as dirt and won't be able to properly use the information that they spend the time gathering. Not being rude but its reality.
Going back to the annoying sales rep scenario here, if you are going to start going down that road, you had better make sure you REALLY know what you are doing and talking about. Otherwise, you become a very annoying twit. We have all had these types of reps. Some people are just better off running their business based on doing exactly what the customer tells them to do.

Notarealsignguy,
Two items:
First: "you had better make sure you REALLY know what you are doing and talking about." That is at the core of what I want to accomplish here on s101. I want to team up with members to bring them to that level.
Second: I have learned from many conversations with sign makers that they end taking jobs they wished they never touched. I believe that some version of this kind of question we have been talking about here could prevent many of those unhappy endings.
Robert Armerding

 

[Robert Armerding]

I'm not sure how long you've been lurking around this place, but the subjects you are touching on are/and have been discussed for a long time. These same questions (posed appropriately) have been asked over and over and over again and again. There are categories, which you are using, just for this sort of thing. Most people come with their questions, looking for answers and most go away with their questions answered. However, the next day, someone will ask the exact same question and here we go again. People do not seem to understand the "search" button or how helpful it is. On your subjects lately, you might find the EXACT people you are reaching out to and contact them directly, using the search feature. Ask them how it's been going ?? Have things improved and you're here to help them. Throwing a psych 101 class on us every other day and using certain buzz words or catch phrases doesn't seem to be doing all that well. Now, you say you've gotten a lotta PMs. That's good. Why not tend to them ?? If you put the word out, they will seek you. Like you said, we don't hafta look in at your threads, but it's always fun to watch a trainwreck.

Gino,
I have asked why we don't have several short tutorials about how to best use s101. Do think that might make any difference? Maybe?
What phrase do you suggest that I use in the search bar?
Robert Armerding

 

[Jeremiah]

Has anyone, in their travels, on google or the internet, ever come across some advertisement be it just there or a popup that says something about....... whatever and it peaks your curiosity ?? You click on it and someone starts talking about this and that, and you think, sounds interesting. They go on talking and next thing ya know, you're 9 minutes into this thing. Now, ya feel like you've put too much time into this and you're gonna hear it out to the end, but the person keeps saying, I'll get to that in a moment, but just listen to this a little bit longer...... so you do. Now, it's 22 minutes and they say, and now.... what you've been waiting for. It's something ya gotta pay for or get a book and you say, what the flyin' F?&$#@)?/} ?? I think it has come to us.

I saw a couple movies not too long ago. One was a punk -ss kid who convinced everyone he was a pilot and wrote bad checks. Finally busted. Then another one where a kid convinced everyone he was somewhat of an authority, but again he just had a lot of talk that went around in circles. He was finally busted too. Funny how the internet has so many experts who just talk in circles. Might be fun to see another movie and watch it until the end. Again

 

[Gino]

Gino,
I have asked why we don't have several short tutorials about how to best use s101. Do think that might make any difference? Maybe?
What phrase do you suggest that I use in the search bar?
Robert Armerding

You dont need tutorials.... ya just learn as you go. Try not to be so anxious to figure it all out in your first week. Cripes, I'm here almost 14 years..... and I'm still learning. You just need to try it, see what happens and then try it again and again, til ya figure your way around. We're all learning. Just sit back, kick up yer feet and listen a tad.

 

[Robert Armerding]

You dont need tutorials.... ya just learn as you go. Try not to be so anxious to figure it all out in your first week. Cripes, I'm here almost 14 years..... and I'm still learning. You just need to try it, see what happens and then try it again and again, til ya figure your way around. We're all learning. Just sit back, kick up yer feet and listen a tad.

Gino,
I think you have a good grasp of what I want to accomplish here on s101. I would like to ask about the "search button." If you were in my shoes, what phrase would you search for?
Robert Armerding

 

[GAC05]

I hate having to talk with tools and try to avoid them in general.

Even though I know they are inanimate objects I have been heard to utter a few salty phrases at them when one slips off a bolt I was trying to remove or they are hiding from me when I really just need a few minutes with one to finish a job.

 

[Robert Armerding]

Gino is on the right track on this. A key rule of reflective questioning is 'be natural'. The OP posed the question “I’m curious. I wonder, what might have prompted you to have this sign built?” I'm Interpreting that as Robert feels there needs to be productive dialogue to understand what exactly are the priorities for the customer in order to generate the best outcome. That's insightful and important, but as Gino pointed out, does not sound very natural (I think he said 'weird'). Most of my customers here would be polite but shaking their head when out of sight, or worse, suspicious because it sounds so fake. Sounding fake and actually being a fake can be entirely different, but in most casual business conversations, reality is whatever is perceived in the moment. We don't usually have the luxury of deep, get to know the real you conversations.

If the answer is in effect 'Well, that's my communication process and I don't need to change' then the person in the sales/consultant role is guilty of not being able to adapt in order to communicate effectively with the customer, and probably needs to work on both BEING AND SOUNDING genuine to earn trust before asking the big questions.

Reveal1
I would like to let you know that I am grateful for your thoughtful response to my thread. I appreciate the concept of "be natural." Doing something like asking a gentle mindful question, for someone not accustomed to it, could be a challenging experience. If I was teaming up with an individual to develop their own style to "generate the best outcome," I would encourage a lot of off stage practicing.
Then your last phrase: "needs to work on both BEING AND SOUNDING genuine to earn trust before asking the big questions." To me, that says a lot.
What if the original question was modified to something like this: "Your sign project has really caught my attention. It sounds very important to you. Would it be all right with you if try to dig a little deeper, better understand what you want to accomplish? If not, no problem."
What to you think, would that maybe work better? Or ???
Robert Armerding

 

[Jester1167]

Jester1167
What if I where to ask you, "Jester, what do you think I am trying to accomplish here on s101?" If you would rather not answer my question, no problem.
Robert Armerding

There you go again deflecting with questions.

I haven't been on for awhile. And, after reading a few of your previous threads, what you're doing isn't working.

You're coming off as a professor treating Signs 101 as your classroom and were not children. Your not offering any real information, opinions, or taking a stand. All the value of the thread is coming from others as you try to guide, cheer it on and then take credit for anything positive because you started it.

What are you trying to accomplish? Stir the pot, pontificate, stroke the ego, studying online behavior for you're grad degree... Those all seem like plausible conclusions.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Notarealsignguy,
Two items:
First: "you had better make sure you REALLY know what you are doing and talking about." That is at the core of what I want to accomplish here on s101. I want to team up with members to bring them to that level.
Second: I have learned from many conversations with sign makers that they end taking jobs they wished they never touched. I believe that some version of this kind of question we have been talking about here could prevent many of those unhappy endings.
Robert Armerding

That is why having a good plan and a regular sales effort is important. Sometimes you take jobs you shouldnt out of fear of not having work or thinking it will lead you to other opportunities. If you dont take that risk though, you may never realize additional opportunities either. Its easier to focus on what went south rather than look at the bigger picture which is you win some and you lose some.

 

[Robert Armerding]

There you go again deflecting with questions.

I haven't been on for awhile. And, after reading a few of your previous threads, what you're doing isn't working.

You're coming off as a professor treating Signs 101 as your classroom and were not children. Your not offering any real information, opinions, or taking a stand. All the value of the thread is coming from others as you try to guide, cheer it on and then take credit for anything positive because you started it.

What are you trying to accomplish? Stir the pot, pontificate, stroke the ego, studying online behavior for you're grad degree... Those all seem like plausible conclusions.

Jester1167
Thank you for your opinion. From my perspective, your answer to my question shows that I have a long way to go to help people like you to understand what I truly want to accomplish.
Maybe someday I might get a little closer.
Robert Armerding

 

[Robert Armerding]

That is why having a good plan and a regular sales effort is important. Sometimes you take jobs you shouldnt out of fear of not having work or thinking it will lead you to other opportunities. If you dont take that risk though, you may never realize additional opportunities either. Its easier to focus on what went south rather than look at the bigger picture which is you win some and you lose some.

Notarealsignguy,
That "risk" is a major part of my even bringing up the query for everyone on s101 to at least think about. It seems to me that if a sales person uses some version of the query, then hopefully that might reduce the "risk."
Thank you for bringing up "you may never realize additional opportunities." That factor makes this situation ever so difficult. Thank you for your thoughtful input.
Robert Armerding

 

[James Burke]

Ok...so this is where it begins to get uncomfortable. I'm curious how would one begin the dialogue for these these signs.

Would it be rude to ask the doctor if he/she has tunnel vision?

I'm asking on behalf of a friend who thinks this thread needs a little HUMOR RELIEF!

Oh, and BTW...don't ever mix slab serifs with ball terminals...it just looks poopy!

JB

 

[Jeremiah]

My son has been reading this thread. He started laughing , and told me this is just like his friend 16 year old Jimmy. His high school classmate Jimmy changed his name on a game thread in a chatroom. Then he started talking to everyone on the thread like they had a deep problem caused by their grandfathers. Jimmy aka "gameplan" slowly told them about how they liked war games because their grandfathers liked folk music. That caused all of them to resent the world and were drawn into war games. He was there to help them with their problem. Many thought it was serious and more than a joke by a 16 year old high school student. On the internet you can pretend to be anyone you want to be.

 

[Stacey K]

I think this question might be more appropriate for smaller, personal type jobs. Such as a sign welcoming home a veteran or some type of "off the wall" sign. The guy who wanted me to make him a sign about God comes to mind. He didn't know what it should say but wanted to kindly let people know God was still out there. In this case, he really DID need to tell me what prompted him to make the sign so we could figure out what the wording should be. OR, those decals for people who pass away. Farm signs - I've had quite a few lately and it's worth asking when it was established, what type of farming did or do they do if they don't have any ideas for artwork, etc. These little jobs are sometimes time suckers, people can talk a long time about their loved ones or their farm history - sometimes they lead to larger jobs but often not. Not trying to sound callous but it's true. I don't see how this could really apply to larger building signs unless the signmaker is questioning unconventional placement or the wording, then you may need to dig deeper. Maybe a second generation business owner trying to be nostalgic, IDK. Time is money and I gotta keep moving forward at a quick pace to keep up with the demand, not a lot of time to yap about the past.

 

[iPrintStuff]

Admittedly I haven’t read a few of the most recent posts but the sense I get from Robert is that your questions/practices are pretty dated.

One, right off the bat. You sign off every post with your name, anyone in the modern age knows you have your name on every post so the extra sign off just makes you look old. The only other person that signs their name at the bottom of texts I know is my gran.

Then again, I’ll reiterate. The practices you mention are dated. Nobody wants to chat, they want to email you. Get a proof. Get their sign/banner/poster. And they want it yesterday. I can pretty much gauge how old my customers are by how long they spend on the phone talking about stuff that doesn’t make me money. The older ones want to chat. The young ones give me the relevant information then hang up and go back to Twitter.

 

[Reveal1]

Admittedly I haven’t read a few of the most recent posts but the sense I get from Robert is that your questions/practices are pretty dated.

One, right off the bat. You sign off every post with your name, anyone in the modern age knows you have your name on every post so the extra sign off just makes you look old. The only other person that signs their name at the bottom of texts I know is my gran.

Then again, I’ll reiterate. The practices you mention are dated. Nobody wants to chat, they want to email you. Get a proof. Get their sign/banner/poster. And they want it yesterday. I can pretty much gauge how old my customers are by how long they spend on the phone talking about stuff that doesn’t make me money. The older ones want to chat. The young ones give me the relevant information then hang up and go back to Twitter.

Partially true. Wouldn't paint everyone with that same brush. Definitely a portion of my clients that are strictly transactional and they tend to be the younger ones or non-business owners. Actually, the more technical and those interested in the nuts and bolts of signmaking would do better than I do with them. But I''ll take the entrepreneur, who is often the type always thinking about how to make their business better. You just need to find a way of connecting with them that is natural and beneficial to them. Robert's approach may be clumsy, but the idea of understanding what a customer is trying to accomplish is never outdated. My marketing and business experience can both help them get where they want to be and make me more money, because they don't mind paying for that. And they run the gamut of age. All I know is that's where I focus, and although not very large in $$ volume, I am very profitable and probably enjoy it more dealing with what I consider more interesting people.

(Dang - after beating up on him I find myself defending Robert/!?)