When a potential client begins to introduce a new project.

[unclebun]

I think there is a fundamental problem with what Robert is trying to do here. I don't think he actually has any experience with managing sign shop businesses, and I don't think he has any idea of what sign shops are like or what they do. I think he is intending to apply some pop-psych cum business school cum internet know-it-all wisdom to "the sign business" in the hopes of suckering some money from a few people. He is not a sign business management Master Jedi, even though he is trying to use Jedi mind tricks here.

The term sign shop encompasses a very wide range of business types and product mixes. Just as the web hosting & advertising companies try to sell everyone on all the same things as being necessary to your business, but the truth is those types of advertising don't work for every business model in every business locale for every product type, I don't think every type of sign shop needs the same kind of business management improvements. Some shops might need lessons on better cost accounting and pricing strategies. Some might need lessons on better internet marketing and webshop methods to increase reach across varying markets. Others might need lessons on how better to sell customers the right sign so that their reputation and word of mouth marketing improves. Someone who really knows what they are talking about in sign business management would be able to ask questions that don't make people go, "Huh??"

And, as someone mentioned earlier, this is a lot like those free steak dinner to hear a sales pitch for a surefire method to become a millionaire before you're 30.

 

[Johnny Best]

unclebun hit the nail right on the head.

 

[iPrintStuff]

What’s the chances that Robert is secretly Toad?

 

[Reveal1]

The term sign shop encompasses a very wide range of business types and product mixes. Just as the web hosting & advertising companies try to sell everyone on all the same things as being necessary to your business, but the truth is those types of advertising don't work for every business model in every business locale for every product type, I don't think every type of sign shop needs the same kind of business management improvements. Some shops might need lessons on better cost accounting and pricing strategies. Some might need lessons on better internet marketing and webshop methods to increase reach across varying markets. Others might need lessons on how better to sell customers the right sign so that their reputation and word of mouth marketing improves. Someone who really knows what they are talking about in sign business management would be able to ask questions that don't make people go, "Huh??"

Too bad - there is probably a use for someone with a successful track record in the sign business that can be a resource for business skills that are industry specific. Not to be critical, but that''s rare to non-existent on this site. A real turn-off to this jaded crowd if presented as 'you are the lowly student and I have great mysteries to impart.' But someone who has built a successful business and and has the ability to communicate skills beyond getting stuff made and installed would be an obvious asset. Just look at the response to Robert's posts. As bad as they are presented and as suspect are his skills and motives, there is obvious interest in some of the topics.

 

[Johnny Best]

What’s the chances that Robert is secretly Toad?

I thought the same thing! But I don't think the Toad could go very long without inserting his superior sense of design and talent.
And his political views on subjects. If he was fishing he would have pulled Tex and Gino in the boat and beat then with a bully club into unconsciousness, and thrown them on ice by now. I miss the fishing excursions with the Toad except for the fly sandwiches his wife packed for the day. Toad said she was a good cook, but thats another subject.

No, I think this guy is serious and wants to help people with his business ability, he just has a weird way communicating with us. You know what the Toad always said "you get more flies with honey"!

 

[iPrintStuff]

Yeah fully agree. Think he has the right intentions. This is just an odd forum and people act a lot differently here than anywhere else I’ve been lol. I had a chat and he does genuinely seem to want to help; just seemed to be a bit full on which people don’t tend to respond very well too. Worth noting some of the best members on this forum tend to be the ones that are very knowledgeable without shoving it down your throat.

Then there’s a few great merchant members that can sell stuff without actually actively selling stuff (like Bigfish or solventinkjet). Those two seem to have it figured out where they can do their thing and get customers without seeming pushy.

 

[Reveal1]

Did anyone else get a PM like I did: 'Why do you hate me?' Bizarre.

 

[Andy D]

So, this might be off of the way to topic drifted, I'm not reading five pages of comments, but I do agree with
the OP about the importance of the sales person asking in-depth, pertinent questions about what's important about
the sign/graphics the customer ordered and what they're trying to achieve.

I have mostly worked at large sign shops that had sales a sales department & my all-time gripe is that sales people, who
endup making 2X times I do, don't do their jobs & the design department, fabricators & I, the graphic manager, have to figure out
what the customer really wanted.

Actual conversation with a sales person (from memory):
Me: Hey, your sign ticket says "3D wrap to go over a piece of stone. Approximately 4x4 with copper writing." what does 3D wrap mean?
Her: I'm not sure, that's what she said.
Me: okay, does she want vinyl applied to a stone, or does she want dimensional letters, a sign?
Her: I'm not sure, she really didn't explain.
Me: Okay, well I can't do anything until you find out & ask what she means by "copper writing".
Her: fine....
Of course she never found out and came in a panic asking where here sign was..
I called the customer and figured out by "3D wrap" she wanted cut vinyl of their logo, their logo is a circle that "wraps" around, and the "copper writing" was
metallic copper of their logo RTA to a slab of 4'x4' granite.

When you're belly to belly with a customer, that's the time to ask all the questions, don't hand me a pile of sh*t and tell me to make a masterpiece out of it.

 

[James Burke]

When you're belly to belly with a customer, that's the time to ask all the questions.

And that's exactly why sales personnel "should" be skilled craftspeople first. If you've ever had the opportunity to give instructions to such a person, you can literally watch them "build" whatever it is in their head as the conversation drones on....stopping every so often to clarify and offer better suggestions...giving you pros and cons...and letting you know 100% of what can or can't be done...and what you can expect in the end.

JB

 

[Andy D]

And that's exactly why sales personnel "should" be skilled craftspeople first. If you've ever had the opportunity to give instructions to such a person, you can literally watch them "build" whatever it is in their head as the conversation drones on....stopping every so often to clarify and offer better suggestions...giving you pros and cons...and letting you know 100% of what can or can't be done...and what you can expect in the end.

JB

YES! Most of the sales were outside sales, some were decent, but none compared to
our inside sales guy that dealt with walk-ins, he was a sign guy & I never had issues with
his orders, he knew the questions to ask.

I find that most sign & graphic requests have a lot of grey area, letting the customer know that
if we could tweek their sign here & change the size there, not only could we get the sign to them
a whole lot faster but save them $$$
It's the customer's job to want-what-they-want, pay next to nothing for it & get it tomorrow.
A salesperson's job is to turn that into a profitable project, by making it as cut-n-dry as possible,
& by politely explaining to the customer why they don't really want what they think they want.

 

[Reveal1]

YES! Most of the sales were outside sales, some were decent, but none compared to
our inside sales guy that dealt with walk-ins, he was a sign guy & I never had issues with
his orders, he knew the questions to ask.

I find that most sign & graphic requests have a lot of grey area, letting the customer know that
if we could tweek their sign here & change the size there, not only could we get the sign to them
a whole lot faster but save them $$$
A customer's job is to want what they want, pay next to nothing for it & get it tomorrow.
A salesperson's job is to turn that into a profitable project, by making it as cut-n-dry as possible,
by politely tell the customer that they don't want what they think they want & why.

You make some good points Andy, but I respectfully disagree on your definition of a good sales person . Probably because I've spent most of my work life in sales and sales management (in the graphics industry). And maybe you have not been exposed to a good salesperson which is understandable because its a difficult profession and there are very few really good ones. First of all, most inside 'sales' people, while doing some selling related tasks, are not really selling. Inside sales as you describe it is order-taking, and yes, someone who gets the order right is valuable but not really a sales person. Selling is a proactive process of finding customers, and matching their needs to the capabilities of your company, resulting in business you would have otherwise not obtained. Conversely, a sales rep needs both selling skills (ability to prospect effectively, discover and solve problems, communicate effectively, follow a sales process, develop a mutually beneficial relationship between companies) and appropriate technical skills relevant to the job. That's why the good ones are paid handsomely, and why there are so few good ones.

 

[Johnny Best]

Did anyone else get a PM like I did: 'Why do you hate me?' Bizarre.

I also got that PM, thought it was an old girlfriend!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You make some good points Andy, but I respectfully disagree on your definition of a good sales person . Probably because I've spent most of my work life in sales and sales management (in the graphics industry). And maybe you have not been exposed to a good salesperson which is understandable because its a difficult profession and there are very few really good ones. First of all, most inside 'sales' people, while doing some selling related tasks, are not really selling. Inside sales as you describe it is order-taking, and yes, someone who gets the order right is valuable but not really a sales person. Selling is a proactive process of finding customers, and matching their needs to the capabilities of your company, resulting in business you would have otherwise not obtained. Conversely, a sales rep needs both selling skills (ability to prospect effectively, discover and solve problems, communicate effectively, follow a sales process, develop a mutually beneficial relationship between companies) and appropriate technical skills relevant to the job. That's why the good ones are paid handsomely, and why there are so few good ones.

100% agree. A big mistake people make is putting people in sales because they know the product and think that is all that it takes. A good outside B2B sales person will learn the product and can easily make 150-300k a year so it is hard to attract them if there is no realistic potential to ever hit that. People joke about sales people but if you are good at it and dedicated, it is a tough and stressful job.

 

[Fred Weiss]

100% agree. A big mistake people make is putting people in sales because they know the product and think that is all that it takes. A good outside B2B sales person will learn the product and can easily make 150-300k a year so it is hard to attract them if there is no realistic potential to ever hit that. People joke about sales people but if you are good at it and dedicated, it is a tough and stressful job.

I can't say this is a fact but I know it's true ...

A long time ago in a non-sign business that depended on repeat trade, we experienced a global emergency that wiped out half of our accounts in just 30 days. I had kept records of each account's acquisition cost and how they became our customers. Sources included Yellow Pages, direct mail, and a very productive outside salesperson. A study I did at the time led me to a truth I believe to this day.

What we found was that the bulk of our lost accounts were those sold by the salesperson. They were also the most expensive. There were a few from direct mail and almost no losses from Yellow Page advertising. My way of putting it is:

The greater the effort one makes to accomplish a sale, the less likely the customer will stay long term. Conversely, the best customers recognize they have a need and respond by contacting you when they encounter passive exposure such as a print ad or a referral from someone for whom you've done work.

In short, the prospective customer who contacts you is of far greater value than is one who has never heard of you and has been signed up by a sales rep.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I can't say this is a fact but I know it's true ...

A long time ago in a non-sign business that depended on repeat trade, we experienced a global emergency that wiped out half of our accounts in just 30 days. I had kept records of each account's acquisition cost and how they became our customers. Sources included Yellow Pages, direct mail, and a very productive outside salesperson. A study I did at the time led me to a truth I believe to this day.

What we found was that the bulk of our lost accounts were those sold by the salesperson. They were also the most expensive. There were a few from direct mail and almost no losses from Yellow Page advertising. My way of putting it is:

The greater the effort one makes to accomplish a sale, the less likely the customer will stay long term. Conversely, the best customers recognize they have a need and respond by contacting you when they encounter passive exposure such as a print ad or a referral from someone for whom you've done work.

In short, the prospective customer who contacts you is of far greater value than is one who has never heard of you and has been signed up by a sales rep.

Im sorry but I totally disagree. I have been in the same industry for 20 years, primarily in sales. I have customers that have followed me to different companies and also had big customers that I brought in that stayed loyal when I left. A lot of my customers dont know Im the owner and think Im a sales rep. They are loyal.
Now as far as aquisition cost you are right but a rep should be reaching customers that have high revenue potential and are not going to be reached by other means. Sales people cost a lot but are very effective. Direct mail, yellow pages etc etc have terrible returns. So it is realtively expensive as well.

 

[Gino]

What Fred is talking about is from like 50 years ago. Totally..... totally different back then. Different mindset, different circumstances and different values. The quest is the same, but not any of the parameters, except people were still involved.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Im sorry but I totally disagree. I have been in the same industry for 20 years, primarily in sales. I have customers that have followed me to different companies and also had big customers that I brought in that stayed loyal when I left. A lot of my customers dont know Im the owner and think Im a sales rep. They are loyal.
Now as far as aquisition cost you are right but a rep should be reaching customers that have high revenue potential and are not going to be reached by other means. Sales people cost a lot but are very effective. Direct mail, yellow pages etc etc have terrible returns. So it is realtively expensive as well.

I agree that a true professional sales person, who stays in touch with his or her clients, will develop a loyal following. That's why they're often required to sign non-compete agreements. In fact, you are making my argument for me. If you moved from company A to company B and your clients followed you, then it follows that company A has lost its customers and got less value from you then was achieved from other account acquisition efforts.

What Fred is talking about is from like 50 years ago. Totally..... totally different back then. Different mindset, different circumstances and different values. The quest is the same, but not any of the parameters, except people were still involved.

I think you're missing the point of my post. Of course some things have changed as time goes along. Yellow Pages is largely a thing of the past, but it has been replaced by other inexpensive, as compared to a commissioned sales rep, methods of prospecting for clients. What mindset, circumstances or values have changed that doesn't recognize that word of mouth and passive advertising for prospects that have a need for what you do will not be more loyal and return for repeat business than will those that were motivated by a charming sales rep?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Are either of you saying that however true at the time this statement was, it is not true today?

"The prospective customer who contacts you is of far greater value than is one who has never heard of you and has been signed up by a sales rep."

 

[Jeremiah]

No matter how I found company A , if they have a good product, good service, good price. Then I decide to try company B for product , service , price and IF they are not as good, I will return to company A . Yes things have changed in the past 50 years and as in loyalty , honesty , kindness and respect. Those things have faded away. Someone who never knew what it was like 50 years ago would never miss those things. How can they.

 

[James Burke]

Yes things have changed in the past 50 years and as in loyalty , honesty , kindness and respect. Those things have faded away.Someone who never knew what it was like 50 years ago would never miss those things. How can they.

Hey...loyalty, kindness and respect are still in vogue...society is still a ways off from being totally barbaric. There are still sales people from 50 years ago who have never lost that personal touch, and are still offering that to their clients.

In today's world, that "touch" is (or appears to be) something new, and is a potential competitive advantage, given the right situation.

JB

 

[Gino]

No, I'm not missing your point, but I might've missed your personal experience. Back then, there was television, radio, newspaper, phonebooks, word of mouth and hitting the streets. Today, we have so many other avenues and having ads rammed down our throats with reinforcement is no longer needed. These things now pop up on our computers, phones, they beep at us, they invade our privacy, they phone us all times of the day, there are devious assults on both our business and personal lives, thesee people/machines thrive on rejection and continually bombarded you, until you're almost crazy with fear, just to answer your phone at night. I still say it's completely different. The end goal is the same, but the new ways of achieving it is kinda wrong in my opinion. Again, that's from someone who was raised with one set of rules..... only to enter into a different world, where like mentioned, if you didn't experience it, how would you realize the difference ??