buying artwork

[threeputt]

OntarioSignGirl, yeah, the words, "artwork" and "copyright" seem to push buttons around here. Don't take it real personal. Some of our forum members earn their living dealing with these and other peripheral areas. So their radar goes up instantly.

Regarding ethics and integrity, yeah I hear those words thrown around all the time. It's nice to thing you're a person of character. I know I do. But not one person on this forum hasn't at one time or another in their lives, "bent" the rules or adjusted things for personal reasons. Quite sure of that.

Not saying that in this particular case you laid out, to do anything unethical. I would caution against that. I'm just saying it's very easy for some people to get on a high horse, claiming the moral high ground at all times, when they themselves might park in a handicap zone, fudge a stroke their golf card, whatever.

Take care.

 

[Bigdawg]

You are probably right threeputt. I cannot - will not - say I haven't ever fudged. When I started playing on the internet there wasn't even any pictures on it yet. So when there came a way to post pictures a lot of people (myself included) didn't think twice about using a picture. Because it was the internet it didn't seem like a real, tangible "thing" I was taking.

But when you KNOW that it's wrong... and why it's wrong... to me that's different. It never hit me that I was taking away from someone else until Fred banned me from this site for downloading a copyrighted graphic someone offered up to me to use on my grandkid's school banner. I was made the example of because prior to that no one paid a whole lot of attention to copyrighted stuff around here. Fred changed that way of thinking PDQ when he took it over. Being banned made the consequences VERY real to me. It could have been worse.

So I'll climb off my high horse now and just say that I really don't mean it personally - Ontario Sign Girl - you asked for opinions (I thought) and I gave mine.

 

[Gino]

Yeah...... I'm sure many of us are guilty of quite a few things and I'm sure we only see most members' better side here. There's always another side to the story.

However, I don't remember talking back to my teachers in school and I don't remember talking back to my elders.... or my parents would make sure I saw the light. Ya never talked back to them or corrected them or it was the last time you saw out that eye for a week.....

Like Stacy has mentioned... one tends to learn their lesson and once you DO know right from wrong.... one is expected to hand those lessons down to others. Remember, the old saying... Do as I say and not as I do' ??

I really believe most here are giving the best advice they know and for those that might not be living a straight as an arrow rule book, still give good advice. It would be irresponsible to give bad advice here to members, your friends or just a customer. That kinda chit always comes back to bite you in the petunia.

Besides, as ontsigngirl reads on and learns the many ways of the industry, she'll only pass good information along, too.

 

[Beatnik1065]

Slippery slope....

This seems very similar to the music industry and down loading music. Who owns the rights? What license to get can be very confusing.

However if you are creating your own logo that represents your business than you should probably come up with your own original piece.

But I totally understand where everyone is coming from. I am offten on both sides of the issue. I think that we all are at one point or another.

ontsigngirl, we were all new to this at one point or another, I've been doing this off an on for the last 10 years. The industry is constantly changing with new technology and new client demands.

But I think that you have brought up a good question. I thank you.

 

[ontsigngirl]

Honey- I'm afraid you are mistaking us for civil human beings rather
than the bloodthirsty wolves that hang here. Sorry Gene

This thread has really taken a turn for the better - and I'm very happy about that -
Many of you made good suggestions - I never thought about contacting students to see if any body had any "cool" ideas but I will keep it in mind for the next time. Since there is a college and a university right in town it should be simple.

I contacted a former co worker of mine - and she is going to give me some ideas. One of the members here offered their opinion on my logo and another offered to help me with art so all in all it was a good experience .

Maybe an "artist" could answer the next part for me -

If someone hires you to create "original" artwork for them and you can't seem to give them exactly what they want - when do you call it quits? How do you get compensation for what you've done up to that point? Do you request a down payment? Do you get paid for an idea - without actually producing finished artwork. Any takers?

 

[iSign]

If someone hires you to create "original" artwork for them and you can't seem to give them exactly what they want - when do you call it quits? How do you get compensation for what you've done up to that point? Do you request a down payment? Do you get paid for an idea - without actually producing finished artwork. Any takers?

might make a good thread all by itself.

 

[hightop]

This is a GREAT learning thread!! For someone like me, who does not do this for a living, it is SO easy to be ignorant about ownership and use of any graphics that can be downloaded. I am sure I would/could have misused something with no ill intent. Since I'm not profiting, maybe it's different, but not really. It is still taking away from the owner. GOOD TO KNOW!!

 

[GypsyGraphics]

before i even finished school, i was kinda forced to officially becoming a business... long before i was ready or wanted to.
(long story, details on my profile page if you want to know).
anyway in my last semester i took a class called "The Business of Graphic Design" which was an awesome class but also scared the crap outta me!
this was 13 or 14 years ago.... so i'm hoping there a "statute of limitations" on all the laws i broke before i knew any better.

 

[ForgeInc]

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks while gathering info for a printshop I plan on opening soon. While I have never been on the actual "producing" end of things I have been on the design end of things for approx 20 years working as a designer for a large corporation, then as a freelance graphic designer the last 12 years. This thread prompted me to reply. I hope this isn't taken as offensive but in the spirit in which it's intended, as advice. If you aren't capable of creating your logo yourself w/out using clip art, and are asking questions such as "what if I am hired to create some original art but can't give my client something they are happy with, how do I still get paid?" perhaps this isn't the business for you? At LEAST not on the design end of things? This may seem harsh, but such attitudes give the sign industry a bad rep. There are so many sign companies out there producing garbage, not knowing anything about design or layout, I'm amazed some are even still in business. I'm not saying you can't be in this business if you aren't creative, you just need to hire someone who is and pay them reasonable fees. An aquaintance of mine posted this great video, it is worth a look for anyone in the sign/design/visual arts industry. It's not necessarily "safe for work" but if you can get past the language it's worth a look. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsqwEiS-Fwo

 

[iSign]

Forgeinc, you are not speaking of the same thing... An unhappy design client does not automatically indicate a ineffective design, or designer, and doesn't preclude that designer from expecting compensation. Se people can not be pleased even if they are reasonable at first and you deliver exactly what was offered!

 

[ontsigngirl]

good point

If you aren't capable of creating your logo yourself w/out using clip art, and are asking questions such as "what if I am hired to create some original art but can't give my client something they are happy with, how do I still get paid?" perhaps this isn't the business for you?

You do make a good point - It may more difficult for someone like me to "shine" in this industry because I do lack certain artist abilities - I'm glad you brought this up - because wanted to address this to someone else yesterday.

As you know there are many different areas of expertise in this industry - some are illustrators, some are creative, some are production people some are manufacturers the list goes on and on - I went to school to become a designer - but as I worked in this business I got more and more into the production end of it (you know the people who fix all the fancy files the designers create anyway - my design skills really haven't been developed - but my production skills are right up there and I would venture to say when it comes to deadline time my skills would far outshine someone who can come up with an outstanding logo. Artistic ability and creative talents are in part God given (and perfected with practice)- I learned my skills the long hard way and I think they give me a very good base for doing exactly what I plan to do.

No offense taken - a lot of people on here think you need to be artistic to be successful in this business but really there are a ton of much more valuable skills involved.

 

[ontsigngirl]

I'm so glad this turned out this way - I really needed a place to vent, and bitch and find ideas and solutions - and even get kicked a few times. Thanks to everyone for treating this in the spirit it was intended. It may even give the strength (balls) to start another thread someday

 

[R08]

No offense taken - a lot of people on here think you need to be artistic to be successful in this business but really there are a ton of much more valuable skills involved.

Now THAT"S an excellent point.

I subcontracted for another sign company (just 1 guy working out of briefcase) for years. This guy couldn't turn a computer on if his life depended on it but he was a great saleman and top notch installer.
He subcontracted his graphics to me did very well for himself.

 

[Marlene]

what is it that you do? what kind of company do you have? there is no shame in not being able to do everything and to have to outsource parts of your job. I can't carve or sandblast but I do "make" a ton of HDU and wooden signs that are. I can't UL label a set of channel letters but I also do a ton of those. if you need to outsource for illustrations, that is no big deal. cleaning up crappy artwork and getting it ready for production is a big skill and it seems to be your forte.

again, I am sorry if I came accross as a total bitch but we just see so many threads based on artwork and rights that it gets to some of us and I am included in that group. don't take things personally around here. the one thing the net lacks is the ability to hear the human voice in a post. what sounds harsh may have been said in real life with a much less nasty tone than the written word can convey. hang in there and never be afraid to post. we all have had our butts kicked around one way or another but it it's all OK in the end.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Not sure if its been stated, but 'logos' derived or built from clip art should probably not be called logos, because the person you sell it to cannot ever claim any rights to that branding, since the artwork is public domain (meaning, royalty free). When you read the fine print of iStock and other vector art, it clearly states this. Just something to keep in mind.

It's ironic how low people want to go to build their most important asset - which is their brand. It's often 'how cheap can I get this' instead of 'what's the best for my business.'

As stated earlier logo design and sign design are very different animals.

 

[JR's]

can the leader of the free world drive a tank? probably not. dose he need a tank? yes. so should he still be the leader? YES, he just has to hire someone to drive the tank for him. ;-}

JR

 

[Gino]

can the leader of the free world drive a tank? probably not. dose he need a tank? yes. so should he still be the leader? YES, he just has to hire someone to drive the tank for him. ;-}

JR

:ROFLMAO: He can't even do a layup without getting busted in the mouth.... and you want him to drive a tank ??

 

[Rick]

20 years is a long, looooong time in the business, even if the majority is from a production end...

There is a line in the movie "WATERBOY" (I know, a deep movie) where Coach Kline asks Bobby Bouche " You've waterboyed for 18 years, didn't you occasionally watch the game?"

You are using generalities that may not be totally accurate or may not apply to this forum. 99% of the people here are actually more production than designers. Most are not schooled designers, a few are really bad at design. Myself, I come from a production end... I used to be a frustrated production designer who really wanted to be a designer... not all production designers are frustrated artist.

I agree with you, you do not have to be artistic to make it in the business, in fact, you need to be a better business person... some people make a killing on crappy coro signs and shiny printed 4 color stuff. I can't... but I kinda don't want to either. A good production person is as good as gold. But you had to have picked up something along the way. My business is based on sign shops, architects and designers not being very good "designers"

I'm not going to beat this topic up as it's been done ad nauseum (and I don't particular feel like being called something today)

ISign is correct this is a good topic all on it's own...

Maybe an "artist" could answer the next part for me -

If someone hires you to create "original" artwork for them and you can't seem to give them exactly what they want - when do you call it quits? How do you get compensation for what you've done up to that point? Do you request a down payment? Do you get paid for an idea - without actually producing finished artwork. Any takers?

First off, take out the word "artist" and replace it with "business person"

There are a few ways of going about this... most sign shops design for free to sell the sign... the sign is the product to them. Many here try to get a down payment before, but in the real world, most do not.

In order to give the client what they want, I start with a creative brief and a contract... the creative brief is a protection to both parties. A creative brief is a questionnaire to get some form of visual language or a target for the designer to hit. If the client strays from the creative brief, then the client wasted your time, you charge them with no hesitation. Most graphic designers start with a contract... either hourly or lump sum. They get a down payment, and will get paid for their time. A design contract should have a "kill fee" so if the mix is not right, then a client or designer has an out. if you as a designer can not fulfill the design requirements, maybe you do give the down payment back because that's good business, but if you followed the brief, then it's good business that you do not allow people to window shop or take advantage of you simply because they can not make up their mind....

3 good books on the business of design I highly recommend.

"Talent Is Not Enough: Business Secrets For Designers" by Shel Perkin
"Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines" by Graphic Artists Guild
"The Creative Business Guide to Running a Graphic Design Business" by Cameron S. Foote

 

[JR's]

:ROFLMAO: He can't even do a layup without getting busted in the mouth.... and you want him to drive a tank ??

that is funny. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: but you know what I mean.

JR

 

[Pat Whatley]

3 good books on the business of design I highly recommend....

I'm gonna go broke buying books Rick keeps recommending.