"Can you email me the file?"

[ForgeInc]

Damn, I actually tried to help addie a while ago, sincerely did. Tried giving him advice on hiring a designer to grow his business. Then, I actually went to bat for him when we became a merchant member and he asked for some pricing on metal signs. I actually spent some time on that quote, researching materials and stuff against my better judgement. Of course he wants something for nearly nothing.

He obviously has been on this forum for a while, why on earth he felt he could say that to such a respected member eludes me.

He offers nothing.

As others have said, why does he hang out where no one likes him? What a doosh.

Now that I'm done pirating, have to second what Dan said. Having been paid for design only the last 20 years or so (and only recently adding print services) it has never been an issue handing over the art. But, I can see why most members on here wouldn't want to give it out to someone else. This is where clear verbiage on the estimate and contract comes in, and others have given examples better than I could.

That said, if you DO get paid for design, that is where you can set yourself apart from others. Taking such a hard stance can potentially rub a customer the wrong way. For something as simple as a business card, if you are doing the art from nothing I would assume most get paid more for the design than the printing anyway so it wouldn't matter. But as you said, this customer probably wasn't worth it anyway.

Sounds like it all worked out though, way to make a stand!

 

[Colin]

To clarify further: The design (semi logo) I did for him initially was a separate item before his first batch of cards were ever ordered. This got used on some small signage orders, then later on the cards.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

To clarify further: The design (semi logo) I did for him initially was a separate item before his first batch of cards were ever ordered. This got used on some small signage orders, then later on the cards.

The second problem that may arise is your definition - 'semi-logo'. Im sure you did a great design because you don't cut corners and want everything to look nice. Did that design then appear on his shirts or elsewhere? What did the language of the contract state about the rights to this 'semi-logo'. Does he own the rights to the logo - just not the art for the signs and business cards? Why not have layout and design fees as one line item, presumably billed at higher labor rate, and then printing costs as a second line item? This way you keep them separate and in clients mind they understand the two are different.

Tough spot to be in because you're building his image for the cost of printing his cards. And its ambiguous to the client what they're buying because the contract language maybe upfront isn't specifying?

But I understand the predicament and challenge. We have our logo fee as one line item, and stationery design as another (sometimes the two are packaged) and then the printing fee as yet another line item. We specifically make it a selling point to let clients know they own the artwork should they ever decide to go elsewhere. Now you've eliminated a concern they may, and actually made it into a good selling point for you over someone who wants to hold the art 'hostage' so to speak.

Its tough when guys come to you and say they want a nice set of business cards. They do, surely. But what their asking for is really nice branding for their business cards, they just don't know that.

 

[John L]

Respectfully, I'm not sure I agree. What purpose does "giving it to the customer" serve other than further drive down the respect, legitimacy and professionalism that has already been robbed from the sign trade? And your other option of ignoring him is the polar opposite of giving it to him. I don't get that.

I didn't hear back from the guy all day today, until about an hour ago, when he provided his CC number by email. So it's good to stand one's ground instead of jumping onto the race-to-the-bottom for pricing.

Perhaps he discussed further the reality and cost of setting it all up again from scratch with the other guy and realized that it's not any cheaper. I dunno.

If I understand your situation correctly, my main purpose would have been to simply remove the potential of a needless confrontation (and all the possible negatives, ill will, bad mouthing, etc) over something with a very minimal potential to benefit to me.

Ignoring the request would be for the same reason although not my first choice. My first choice would have been to give it as a service to the customer.

Just my opinion, my 2 cents, my hat thrown in. I'm glad you got paid. A great outcome regardless of how it went down!

Now if I were that customer, I would have assumed you would have charged me and if you didnt, I would have offered and/or insisted you accept something for your trouble in helping me out.

 

[MatthewTimothy]

Great answers here, How do you guys know a fee to charge for releasing the "artwork design files"?

if you are in the design world, this book is a must have:

Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines

 

[Colin]

^^^ Awesome book, thanks for the link! (I wonder if the author would take $10.00 for it). :Big Laugh:Big Laugh:Big Laugh

 

[JoshLoring]

Just remember, pricing is all relative to talent. Guys like Dan, Joe and us bill out higher- maybe 100$ plus an hour, but can achieve things in 20 minutes that a 20$ an hour designers would take 6 hours for. The Lucas film guys probobly bill 5000$ (exaggeration) an hour but who cares, they got skills.
All said. Just invoice correct, per line item. Protect your art and and your clients art- and stop arguing. Lol

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Just remember, pricing is all relative to talent. Guys like Dan, Joe and us bill out higher- maybe 100$ plus an hour, but can achieve things in 20 minutes that a 20$ an hour designers would take 6 hours for. The Lucas film guys probobly bill 5000$ (exaggeration) an hour but who cares, they got skills.
All said. Just invoice correct, per line item. Protect your art and and your clients art- and stop arguing. Lol

When we do have smaller work, not project work, its billed hourly @ 135/hr. But most project work, were we to actually calculate by hours, would be much higher. Reason being , like you said, is why should I penalize my business because we're faster than other people?

When people say 'Oh that design 'only' took you 2 hours' I laugh and say, 'Yep, it took me two hours and twenty years.' Things like brochures and print ads, we don't bill hourly. It's not as much as question as to how long it took us, it's more of question of what it's worth.

 

[Colin]

Yes, and if people who feel that $60 or $135 for an hour's work is a lot, when you consider just what a competent designer or signmaker can actually accomplish in an hour, it's an absolute bargain compared to what other forms of advertising can cost.

 

[JoshLoring]

When people say 'Oh that design 'only' took you 2 hours' I laugh and say, 'Yep, it took me two hours and twenty years.'

Real life experience:
Client came in wanting a logo. Did a consultation. Simple logo. Told them 300$
I said you know what, can you wait a bit- I really like this logo idea and I want to just do it right now because I know exactly what you want. (I had thought about a logo idea like this months before I even met this person) I did the logo in 10 minutes. Perfect logo. Client loved it sooo much. They said "it only took you ten minutes" I said.. "No, it took me 15 years to make that logo"

 

[boxerbay]

Hey I don't expect an apology from this boil on the *** of 101.
From his company name, taken from the name of a font subbing the b for a d, to his use of the US postal service's logo in his own "logo", to his clever use of a signature trying to fit in, his complaints of ill health and a worm posting as himself, his admitting he does nothing in-house, his bad advice, his atrocious designs, Adholio is a hack.
And hacks like him are the nails in the coffin of a once-proud profession, where you actually had to have some talent to be successful.
He is a detriment to this forum.
I find myself not wanting to give advice anymore simply because I resent the fact that he will add his 1½¢ to any given topic whether he knows anything about it or not.

I myself did not coin the moniker Adholio, I can't remember who did, but it was fitting.
Whether I am a lady or not doesn't matter, you, sir, are no gentleman and I wish with every fiber of my being that you would be banned from Signs 101.
Lord knows, by next month you will have reinvented yourself and will be Pipetechia on some plumber's forum.
And sometimes I am a bytch, but your inane comments about giving something away and then firing a customer made absolutely no sense to me.
And I can get $175 for 500 business cards, can't you?
Is that some sort of shocker?
I don't think my initial post was a derailment, I told Colin my opinion and then wrote about your comments out of sheer eye-rollingness.
I know I am not alone in wishing that you were not a member here.

Lesson learned - don't mess with Jill's Beans.

Myself I would not hassle a client about a BC design. It's just a BC design not the Mona Lisa. The client has moved on for whatever reason. The work for creating the BC should have already been charged for. at this point it's like you and your girl have broken up and your keeping her CD's just to be a jerk. Charge accordingly up front and don't keep clients hostage. It's like your trying to force them to continue doing business with you because you have their files. It's the wrong approach.

 

[spm]

Your artwork, till he pays for it. I bet he called the other guy and they had a set up charge to redraw or design the artwork, that's why he called you back.

It's Never Apples to Apples in this Biz.

 

[Bly]

So insulting tags are permitted as long as they are about Adtechia?
Interesting.

I'd just give them the art.
If it was part of a job they paid you for it's understandable they think it's theirs.

 

[allamericantrade]

Found this thread quite insiteful. I plan on placing a digital copy price seperate charge clause listed into my contracts. I already use a artwork is the sole property listing on the proofs I supply customers currently.

 

[visual800]

you get $175 for 500 freakin cards!? you have got to be kidding!? what the hell are they gold foil on black

 

[omgsideburns]

I like to send them a low res JPG and say thats all I've got.

 

[Colin]

you get $175 for 500 freakin cards!? you have got to be kidding!? what the hell are they gold foil on black

They are laminated (matte or gloss) both sides, rendering them tear-proof and water-proof, with a heavy, substantial feel as opposed to the ubiquitous limp paper card which quickly becomes dog-eared and quietly whispers "It's ok to throw me away". People are much less inclined to toss a slick, attractive, robust card away, and the intent is for them to hang on to it.

The price also includes design/layout and all file preparation and color settings. So if you feel that all of this for $175.00 for 500 cards (which are a very important part of one's overall business presentation) is a lot of money, I suggest that you have succumbed to the race to the bottom of price, in this world that knows the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.

 

[BrushedRed]

you get $175 for 500 freakin cards!? you have got to be kidding!? what the hell are they gold foil on black

Perhaps pricing is different where I am from but $175 is cheap for 500 cards for us.

Currently have an estimate on my desk for a client
500 cards 279.00 100lb Cougar Opaque Cover 2/1 Standard 3.5 x 2

This is pretty normal for us.

 

[Locals Find!]

Perhaps pricing is different where I am from but $175 is cheap for 500 cards for us.

Currently have an estimate on my desk for a client
500 cards 279.00 100lb Cougar Opaque Cover 2/1 Standard 3.5 x 2

This is pretty normal for us.

You would never get anywhere close to that in the Southern U.S. States. Try as you might $100 - $125 is the absolute max your going to get for 1000 cards and even then that is seriously few and far between. $75.00 seems to be about the going rate here locally for 1000 and about $65 for 500 artwork included at most shops.

 

[AnotherSignManiac]

You would never get anywhere close to that in the Southern U.S. States. Try as you might $100 - $125 is the absolute max your going to get for 1000 cards and even then that is seriously few and far between. $75.00 seems to be about the going rate here locally for 1000 and about $65 for 500 artwork included at most shops.

+1 to this, I see the same pricing trends here too