Fred Weiss
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Give Up Hire a Professional
- Thread starter Locals Find!
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Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
Deaton Design
New Member
I just told my dog that this morning, lol.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Is it Okay if I just chit in one place all the time ?? Like my neighbors parking lot ??
I used to see it in the sandbox at the playground when I was little. That stuff really made for building good castles.
Man, did that tick my Mom off when I got home and had some other kid's piss smell on my hands..........As for the OP, I don't think he's talking about his own capabilities or lack of... but others that he sees getting a stern answer and is now becoming afraid to post his stuff for his internet correspondence course into the sign industry.
Like some said already..... I wouldn't think anyone would want to learn from this site, if they have nothing to offer up to begin the game. You need a certain amount of artistic, NOT hand to eye coordination, but at least know some basics of the industry. If you don't have a clue as to what the color wheel is about, or some perspective, or even art theory... you aren't going to fare all that well. Sure, you'll eventually learn the basics, but it will be a long time until you're knocking this stuff out like it's nothing.
Like some said already..... I wouldn't think anyone would want to learn from this site, if they have nothing to offer up to begin the game
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
+1, but just speaking for myself on this one, what I can't do at that time, I try to learn so that I can at some point do that unless there is just something that retarding my ability to "pick it up".
SignManiac
New Member
I'm assuming that Addies post here, is in my response to the latest logo posted for critique. It's not often I advise that someone hire a professional, but in this case I felt he/she would be better served rather than spending days, perhaps weeks, and possibly never, trying to design something that I feel is one of the most important parts of your business. I don't care if you are the best wrapper in the world, a crappy logo makes you look crappy.
If you want to project a professional image, then delegate the design to someone who knows what they're doing, for your companies sake. What I saw of the posted logo design left me with little doubt that the poster would not be able to design something on his own. Even if he spent months working on it. You have to have a basic knowledge and talent to begin with and I didn't see any of that. I still stand by my suggestion to use a logo designer. I delegate all the time. I know what I'm good at, and what I suck at. It makes sense to work smarter.
If you want to project a professional image, then delegate the design to someone who knows what they're doing, for your companies sake. What I saw of the posted logo design left me with little doubt that the poster would not be able to design something on his own. Even if he spent months working on it. You have to have a basic knowledge and talent to begin with and I didn't see any of that. I still stand by my suggestion to use a logo designer. I delegate all the time. I know what I'm good at, and what I suck at. It makes sense to work smarter.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Ah-ha........... That's what most suck at..... they don't know what they suck at and continue to suck and suck and suck and suck some more until they suck it out of someone else and then we have a domino effect and then we all contract the sinister disease...... Suckinitis.
I hate when that happens............... 
ForgeInc
New Member
Just reiterating what others have said. You may have been referring to my comment in the previous thread where I said "hire a professional, there is just too much wrong here". As Dan said, the proliferation of computers and design software has made many folks think they can be graphic designers.
The American Idol analogy is an excellent one. How many times have really bad singers been told on that show "no, no, no..." only to beg for constructive criticism and advice on how to get better? Either you have the eye for logo design (the MOST DIFFICULT part of graphic design BTW,) or you don't. Sometimes it will only take a color tweak, or adjustment of a line thickness, or perhaps a different font choice...most times however, it just simply doesn't work and advice no matter how appropriate, won't help. In those cases, I think advice of "hire someone" is much better than trying to put lipstick on a pig.
The American Idol analogy is an excellent one. How many times have really bad singers been told on that show "no, no, no..." only to beg for constructive criticism and advice on how to get better? Either you have the eye for logo design (the MOST DIFFICULT part of graphic design BTW,) or you don't. Sometimes it will only take a color tweak, or adjustment of a line thickness, or perhaps a different font choice...most times however, it just simply doesn't work and advice no matter how appropriate, won't help. In those cases, I think advice of "hire someone" is much better than trying to put lipstick on a pig.
John Butto
New Member
The American Idol analogy is an excellent one.
Not a good one, half of the judges could not sing a note, "dude, you know what I'm talking about".
Not a good one, half of the judges could not sing a note, "dude, you know what I'm talking about".
CES020
New Member
I'll take a different view then. I think it's a cop out to tell someone that's asked for help to "hire a professional". I think that's a crap attitude for the most part. My guess is all that say that are people that were born with design talent and never had anyone teach them a single thing in their entire profession. Get serious. Someone asks for help because they want to learn. Learning is a magnificent thing. So you're 50 years old and have 30 years under your belt. The person on the other end of the computer may be 20 years old and 6 months under their belt. They are exactly where you were 30 years ago. Did people tell you to forget it and hire someone, or did they encourage you to learn, teach you things, offer helpful suggestions that would help you become better? Of course they did, and it made you better. Yet when it's your turn to give back, you say "Forget it, you suck, hire someone, I can't be bothered to waste my time".
I'm not a designer. I've said that 100 times on this forum. This is my second career. I spent 25 years in the first one and I started fresh, like so many of us do these days. I don't know how to design, but I really enjoy learning. So me asking for help is because I want to learn. You telling me that I suck and I should hire a professional helps me learn little about design.
I do agree, a good designer can do a great job and there are times to use them, and I myself might very well end up hiring one, but I'll never give up asking questions about things and trying to learn.
I don't think you need thick skin to participate in this trade. I think there are some people that think they can talk to everyone like a dog and then claim "You need thick skin". We're all people here, most are here to learn and participate. There's no need to treat people any different than you want to be treated yourself.
We're not all at the same skill level, time in the trade, or experience. That's what makes it all so interesting. We learn from each other. I don't learn anything if you tell me I'm not worth teaching.
There's also a HUGE difference in someone showing their efforts and hearing "You suck, hire a professional" versus, "I see you're trying, but I don't think you're heading in the right direction, here's a couple of suggestions..."
I don't want to pay a designer. Not because I'm cheap, but because I really want to do something myself, something that I can look at and be proud of. In the end, I might very well hire someone, but I'm dying to do something myself so I can learn.
Just my opinion (which surely I'll be called out for having).
I'm not a designer. I've said that 100 times on this forum. This is my second career. I spent 25 years in the first one and I started fresh, like so many of us do these days. I don't know how to design, but I really enjoy learning. So me asking for help is because I want to learn. You telling me that I suck and I should hire a professional helps me learn little about design.
I do agree, a good designer can do a great job and there are times to use them, and I myself might very well end up hiring one, but I'll never give up asking questions about things and trying to learn.
I don't think you need thick skin to participate in this trade. I think there are some people that think they can talk to everyone like a dog and then claim "You need thick skin". We're all people here, most are here to learn and participate. There's no need to treat people any different than you want to be treated yourself.
We're not all at the same skill level, time in the trade, or experience. That's what makes it all so interesting. We learn from each other. I don't learn anything if you tell me I'm not worth teaching.
There's also a HUGE difference in someone showing their efforts and hearing "You suck, hire a professional" versus, "I see you're trying, but I don't think you're heading in the right direction, here's a couple of suggestions..."
I don't want to pay a designer. Not because I'm cheap, but because I really want to do something myself, something that I can look at and be proud of. In the end, I might very well hire someone, but I'm dying to do something myself so I can learn.
Just my opinion (which surely I'll be called out for having).
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I'm right there with you. In more ways then one as this is also my second career. Like I said earlier, I don't care if you call my stuff shit, just back it up. That's how I learn.
Just like when I get into a "debate" with someone on here and challange their position, I do that in order to see if what I think, believe in, has merit or not.
ForgeInc
New Member
I'll have to stand by my comments as well as others on here. Either you have a "voice" and can sing in tune (in this analogy AKA the ability to design a successful, impactful logo) or your voice sucks (AKA you can't design a good logo and never will).
Those that have it know immediately those who don't and never will (or also those who are close and need some helpful, constructive advice), and those who don't have it...well...they simply don't. The voice simply isn't there. You can take this as snobbish, many probably will...but it's a simple reality.
Those that have it know immediately those who don't and never will (or also those who are close and need some helpful, constructive advice), and those who don't have it...well...they simply don't. The voice simply isn't there. You can take this as snobbish, many probably will...but it's a simple reality.
artsnletters
New Member
Well, having thick skin is a plus around here lately. As far as Addie (OP) goes, i went to his website and was severely underwhelmed. I do believe that getting honest criticism and constructive advice is what's needed here. OP tends to get butt hurt by the negativity being tossed around, and react in kind, and then everybody is pissed off. All i can say is keep posting and keep trying, and hopefully retain your cool, there is an incredible resource here with some bonafide experts in design chiming in (not me), they know who they are....
you can learn a lot, just chill and don't take things so damn personal. Where would you (and a lot of us) be if everyone (friends, co-workers, loved ones and board members) continually blew sunshine up your ass and told you you were the king of all media? When the suckometer pegs, its time to re-group and pick up "Mastering Layout" or some Signcraft mags for some inspiration (not plagarism)
JMO
Tim
you can learn a lot, just chill and don't take things so damn personal. Where would you (and a lot of us) be if everyone (friends, co-workers, loved ones and board members) continually blew sunshine up your ass and told you you were the king of all media? When the suckometer pegs, its time to re-group and pick up "Mastering Layout" or some Signcraft mags for some inspiration (not plagarism)
JMO
Tim
2972renfro
New Member
I have looked at your portfolio before and have hesitated to comment before, but wow. Not really of nice way of saying it, but this looks like a kid drew some of these things. Pick one and let's debate how it can be improved
http://www.wildwestdesigns.biz/GraphicGallery.html
Locals Find!
New Member
I would just like to say I started this thread for a Healthy Debate on the Subject and for some honest feedback on a question that had been on my mind. I see it has sparked some honest answers and some answers from a Newbie that is a bit pretentious.
Unnamed Newbie believes he can sort out children that are going to be artists or not by their scribbles with a Crayon. Seems to be a prevailing attitude around here. Makes me think of the Teacher that gave Einstein an "F" in Math while he was in Grade School. You never can tell what the future may hold.
Unnamed Newbie believes he can sort out children that are going to be artists or not by their scribbles with a Crayon. Seems to be a prevailing attitude around here. Makes me think of the Teacher that gave Einstein an "F" in Math while he was in Grade School. You never can tell what the future may hold.
iSign
New Member
I just started this thread, & I'm going to risk duplicity by replying already before I read a tenth of the replies...
Maybe Gino's example will never translate perfectly, but to me, your version is no more accurate, because a teacher is being paid to teach...
...a golf pro can help an intermediate golfer to tweak his grip, or his stance, or his follow through.. but if a guy has no arm strength, no aim, or arms too short to reach the ground... maybe if the pay is well... he will still help you, but friendly free lesson between peers out on the fairway?? I don't think so!
Bigdawg
Just Me
My sister can't see the differences in color that I do. She never will no matter how many times I explain it to her. Some people will never be able to see what is wrong with their design.
Don't get me wrong... I've done some sucky stuff that I cringe when I look back on. The difference being I see the crappiness... and the funny thing is 95% of the people that look at it will think it is just fine. They will probably never see what I see.
So you can either do it - or you can't. I am not some highly-skilled designer... my skills are, in fact, rather commercial. But I know what I can do and have a halfway decent eye for what is out of sync on a layout or design. The difference between me and a great designer is knowing exactly what to do to fix it.
If you don't see or understand the flaws even after they are pointed out - it's time for a professional.
Don't get me wrong... I've done some sucky stuff that I cringe when I look back on. The difference being I see the crappiness... and the funny thing is 95% of the people that look at it will think it is just fine. They will probably never see what I see.
So you can either do it - or you can't. I am not some highly-skilled designer... my skills are, in fact, rather commercial. But I know what I can do and have a halfway decent eye for what is out of sync on a layout or design. The difference between me and a great designer is knowing exactly what to do to fix it.
If you don't see or understand the flaws even after they are pointed out - it's time for a professional.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Aw..... c'mon. How slow do you want this site to run??
Somewhere Fred has made mention of... there is no magic button for anything. That also pertains to life and what one does with it. You either learn and go with the flow or get out of the way and let those that are learning continue.
What party do you want to participate in ??
Of course you can say things nice all day long, but when the same questions are asked over and over and some of these people don't even try to help themselves and bite the hand that feed them.... then it's just too bad.
This same question has come up so many times.... worded a little different, but nonetheless it's been around the block a time or two. There's nothing wrong with being polite, but there's nothing wrong with being direct, either.
Now, I'm sure cyber muscles play a part, but that doesn't mean we're purposely trying to hurt the guy/gal. Being brutally honest is better for anyone. Being hurtful is a different thing. Years ago, this place wreaked of people calling names and downright trying to be hurtful. I know I did it and just about everyone else did it, too. However, it was quickly seen how wrong that method was and for the most part, telling someone to hire a professional is just a nice way of telling them the thing stinks, without calling them a few degrading names and outright saying their talent is lower than whalechit. If someone can't take the honest truth and can't see how bad their artwork, design, sign construction, method of collecting or just plain handling their customers is.... then they need to roll over and let progress through. They have no business being in business, let alone pretending to be a sign shop if you can't do something worthwhile. Sure, everyone has to start somewhere and we weren't all born with a pencil up our a$$, but many of us had family, teachers, friends and possibly professionals see our work and were guided to follow our talents and/or dreams. You are then groomed and trained for a profession. Nothings handed to you. You ought to know that.
Now, come to this place where professionals and wannabe sign makers hang out and get the most basic of basic questions asked and some here feel like it's a sock in the jaw.... a sucker punch. They can't believe what some are posting up, while others are in the same boat and want all the o-o-o-o-s, That's got potential, but it needs a lot of work. You're coming along just dandy there sparky.
It would be a wonderful place if we were all equal, but then we wouldn't need this place. Don't get me wrong, one can learn a great~great deal here at :signs101:, but it's also a place for camaraderie while learning and teaching, but no one ever said you're gonna learn from the very basics on up. This is not second grade. By the time one gets to a place such as this, they probalby have some experience and hopefully enough so they know what not to do sometimes. There are tutorials, books, great members that will take yu under their wing and many other avenues to strengthen some needed skills, but to do a 'show n tell' type of thread and then get pissed off when something doesn't go their way is just childish and foolish as an adult business person.
I know many don't agree with me, but if you really want to learn, why aren't these people asking for more books to buy, classes to attend, schools to learn, apprenticeships or other means to gaining this knowledge. Why always give me... give me... give me... and then rarely ever a thank you. It takes two to tango and I rarely see the other side trying to participate.
One last thing, there are plenty of people here worth helping if not everybody, but let's be fair about it and do it in an adult manner and stop whining about how the help gets to you. Perhaps then, maybe the old timers will stop being so mean.
Somewhere Fred has made mention of... there is no magic button for anything. That also pertains to life and what one does with it. You either learn and go with the flow or get out of the way and let those that are learning continue.
What party do you want to participate in ??
Of course you can say things nice all day long, but when the same questions are asked over and over and some of these people don't even try to help themselves and bite the hand
This same question has come up so many times.... worded a little different, but nonetheless it's been around the block a time or two. There's nothing wrong with being polite, but there's nothing wrong with being direct, either.
Now, I'm sure cyber muscles play a part, but that doesn't mean we're purposely trying to hurt the guy/gal. Being brutally honest is better for anyone. Being hurtful is a different thing. Years ago, this place wreaked of people calling names and downright trying to be hurtful. I know I did it and just about everyone else did it, too. However, it was quickly seen how wrong that method was and for the most part, telling someone to hire a professional is just a nice way of telling them the thing stinks, without calling them a few degrading names and outright saying their talent is lower than whalechit. If someone can't take the honest truth and can't see how bad their artwork, design, sign construction, method of collecting or just plain handling their customers is.... then they need to roll over and let progress through. They have no business being in business, let alone pretending to be a sign shop if you can't do something worthwhile. Sure, everyone has to start somewhere and we weren't all born with a pencil up our a$$, but many of us had family, teachers, friends and possibly professionals see our work and were guided to follow our talents and/or dreams. You are then groomed and trained for a profession. Nothings handed to you. You ought to know that.
Why do you think so many halfwits are in this business ??
Because it's been dumbed down to where a monkey can do it if he/she pushes the right button. Anyone can be trained to do that.
Now, come to this place where professionals and wannabe sign makers hang out and get the most basic of basic questions asked and some here feel like it's a sock in the jaw.... a sucker punch. They can't believe what some are posting up, while others are in the same boat and want all the o-o-o-o-s, That's got potential, but it needs a lot of work. You're coming along just dandy there sparky.
It would be a wonderful place if we were all equal, but then we wouldn't need this place. Don't get me wrong, one can learn a great~great deal here at :signs101:, but it's also a place for camaraderie while learning and teaching, but no one ever said you're gonna learn from the very basics on up. This is not second grade. By the time one gets to a place such as this, they probalby have some experience and hopefully enough so they know what not to do sometimes. There are tutorials, books, great members that will take yu under their wing and many other avenues to strengthen some needed skills, but to do a 'show n tell' type of thread and then get pissed off when something doesn't go their way is just childish and foolish as an adult business person.
I know many don't agree with me, but if you really want to learn, why aren't these people asking for more books to buy, classes to attend, schools to learn, apprenticeships or other means to gaining this knowledge. Why always give me... give me... give me... and then rarely ever a thank you. It takes two to tango and I rarely see the other side trying to participate.
One last thing, there are plenty of people here worth helping if not everybody, but let's be fair about it and do it in an adult manner and stop whining about how the help gets to you. Perhaps then, maybe the old timers will stop being so mean.
CES020
New Member
Stacy, I agree some people are naturals at it. They do beautiful work. And some people have to learn, some learn at different paces. Will my work every be up to the level of people like Rick? Nope. Will my work one day be far better than most of the sign shops in town? Yes it will. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, but one day, it will. It will because I am determined to learn.
My brain is wired for mechanical, straight line stuff. Curves and free flowing stuff cause me a lot of issues. However, it's something I'm really aware of and I'm trying to work through. It might be a block I can't get through. If might be something I can break through with the right help and guidance. That's something I'll have to learn on the journey.
I used to draw cities from a perspective view when I was a kid. Loved drawing that stuff. But, it's all straight lines
My point is that by seeing one or two things I do, while I'm in the early stages of my journey isn't enough information for anyone to tell me to stop my journey. Want to get to know me, see what I do, learn about me, what I can and can't do, what I want to do, and then you might say "I think you best leave that to someone else", but to have total strangers say "You suck, quit now" just seems unbelievably arrogant to me.
Especially when you look at the work of some that say it and you can immediately see they need to spend some time on their own work.
My personal belief is to try not to discourage anyone from trying to learn anything. If their work is sub-standard, the market will sort them out.
Interesting to me that the people most of us hold to high levels on this forum, on the design side, are rarely, if ever, the ones to tell people that are trying, to give it up. They are most always the most generous with their offerings.
My brain is wired for mechanical, straight line stuff. Curves and free flowing stuff cause me a lot of issues. However, it's something I'm really aware of and I'm trying to work through. It might be a block I can't get through. If might be something I can break through with the right help and guidance. That's something I'll have to learn on the journey.
I used to draw cities from a perspective view when I was a kid. Loved drawing that stuff. But, it's all straight lines
My point is that by seeing one or two things I do, while I'm in the early stages of my journey isn't enough information for anyone to tell me to stop my journey. Want to get to know me, see what I do, learn about me, what I can and can't do, what I want to do, and then you might say "I think you best leave that to someone else", but to have total strangers say "You suck, quit now" just seems unbelievably arrogant to me.
Especially when you look at the work of some that say it and you can immediately see they need to spend some time on their own work.
My personal belief is to try not to discourage anyone from trying to learn anything. If their work is sub-standard, the market will sort them out.
Interesting to me that the people most of us hold to high levels on this forum, on the design side, are rarely, if ever, the ones to tell people that are trying, to give it up. They are most always the most generous with their offerings.
GAC05
Quit buggin' me
Anything can be learned up to a level of competency that enables a person to be a technician in a chosen field. With design work I am sure there is something there in the talent/artistic channel that some have and others are never going to have. No matter how good of a tech you are, the guy with more imagination/natural talent is going to clean your clock going head to head just about every time.
I know I don't have that particular gene but this business needs both techs & artists so I am good to go.
Like water, find your level and do the best you can there.
wayne k
guam usa
Doug do the golfers you hang out with, who's knuckles drag on the ground, really play better?
"but if a guy has no arm strength, no aim, or arms too short to reach the ground..."
I know I don't have that particular gene but this business needs both techs & artists so I am good to go.
Like water, find your level and do the best you can there.
wayne k
guam usa
Doug do the golfers you hang out with, who's knuckles drag on the ground, really play better?
"but if a guy has no arm strength, no aim, or arms too short to reach the ground..."