Illustrator and photoshop not printing same blue.

[altereddezignz]

You need to think of those CMYK value as a output color not an input color. That spot color your wanting ends up being a CMYK output color because that is how the printer is addresses. Because of the way your two color are read/input they output different The Spot Color Library tells what CMYK values based on your color management setting are to be sent to the printer. The CMYK input from raster gets told how to output based on your CMYK input profile covert by your CM to output CMYK values to your printer. Since the Vector Spot and the Raster do not have the same input values the output values will be different. The trick is and what the Color Replacement function should be is so that you can make those two different input colors the same output value that gets sent to your printer. There are also other uses for Color Replacement beside making your two colors print the same.

Your Vector Spot should show the CMYK value that is sent to the printer. If Onyx does not do that then that is a serious flaw, because in your situation you would have no way to know how to make those two colors match on the printer.

Do a test because those Color Replacement values should be the CMYK values that are sent to the printer. In the test you can try this. Make a CMYK input file with just 100% or each of the primary colors. Now RIP with CM on and check those color values with the eye dropper in Color Replacement. You will find they are not 100% any longer. Now Replace each with 100% only of it's color. If everything is working correctly as it should your printer will print 100% of each of the colors. How do you like your Black now!

Ok let me see if i am making since of this right. I know that i can print a file from AI with the spot color and hit that spot color after being ripped.
So could i not just send the same AI file and look at that file in the job manager on Onyx and see what CMYK color value it gives me then take my PS file and replace that color?

I think this would work since it is asking me what CMYK mix to use. Sad part it is a CMYK,LC, LM,LB R, Or .

Sure would be a lot nicer and simplier if it would just keep the pantone color out of photoshop lol...

When you in job manager in onyx your only allowed to use spot color replacement if you have a spot color like from AI, If you have a cmyk or an RGB mix incoming after the rip you can only use CMYK.. Ill post up a few screenshots when i test it as well..

 

[Andy_warp]

Ok let me see if i am making since of this right. I know that i can print a file from AI with the spot color and hit that spot color after being ripped.
So could i not just send the same AI file and look at that file in the job manager on Onyx and see what CMYK color value it gives me then take my PS file and replace that color?

I think this would work since it is asking me what CMYK mix to use. Sad part it is a CMYK,LC, LM,LB R, Or .

Sure would be a lot nicer and simplier if it would just keep the pantone color out of photoshop lol...

When you in job manager in onyx your only allowed to use spot color replacement if you have a spot color like from AI, If you have a cmyk or an RGB mix incoming after the rip you can only use CMYK.. Ill post up a few screenshots when i test it as well..

I would approach it like this:
Do some grid variations of builds in photoshop.
Save as a .psd - doesn't matter if you work in rgb or cmyk...just that it's consistent every time.
(a cmyk layout in Illustrator will still retain the RGB color space attached to a raster image)
I would work in RGB because of it's larger gamut.
Place psd in Illy with nothing else...rip and print.

Find your color.

One VERY important thing to keep in mind. The CMYK values in the color replacement are for your device ONLY.
The numbers do not translate backwards or even to the same exact model of printer.

The reason why is your rip is taking black generation and ink limits into account, as well as mapping it to the closest color in your ink and profile gamut.
I doubt you can 100% hit Pantone 485C, so your rip gives you "as close as it can" with your profile (print...not icc)

I have a decent profile and can only hit about 60% of the pantone colors. Dense dark blues and purples are just not possible to get to sometimes.
The rips job is to give simulations of those pantone colors. To see this in action, use your hated color Process Blue C and put Process Blue U right next to it.
They are different...in some color ranges the Uncoated color is MUCH different. You can run reports in Onyx that will tell you if the Pantone color is out of gamut.
It will give you the Delta E value of how close your color is to matching Pantones known measured L-a-b values. The smaller the number, the closer you are to the color.

Another good drill is to use your Pantone color bridge (you have a full set of Pantone books...right?!) and look at the color Pantone creates with only CMYK.
I know for a fact I can't hit certain spot colors....but I know my corrected color is better than the process CMYK equivalent as called out by Pantone.

With digital printing, that's all we can do. As I get good Pantone corrections, I log the DEVICE builds on a chart. Then whenever that color comes up, I know I have a good match.
I have 20 or 30 good matches so far. Device builds are gold! The beauty of them is there is no step after ripping, so no chance for a weird shift due to a profile translation.

 

[ImagePress]

Well dumb question but can you explain exactly how your doing it as a spot color in photoshop? There is a possibility I am doing it wrong but I don't think so. Now I am not ruling out onyx as the issue just haven't been able to figure it out.

When creating a spot color in photoshop you have to make sure you name the color EXACTLY the same as what is in your RIP's Pantone library. If you don't you will just get the CMYK breakdown that is in the photoshop file. So if you are trying to use PMS 202C and your RIP's library is looking for 202 C, you have to match that. Not 202C, 202 c, or any other variation (they are case sensitive).

 

[altereddezignz]

I would approach it like this:
Do some grid variations of builds in photoshop.
Save as a .psd - doesn't matter if you work in rgb or cmyk...just that it's consistent every time.
(a cmyk layout in Illustrator will still retain the RGB color space attached to a raster image)
I would work in RGB because of it's larger gamut.
Place psd in Illy with nothing else...rip and print.

Find your color.

One VERY important thing to keep in mind. The CMYK values in the color replacement are for your device ONLY.
The numbers do not translate backwards or even to the same exact model of printer.

The reason why is your rip is taking black generation and ink limits into account, as well as mapping it to the closest color in your ink and profile gamut.
I doubt you can 100% hit Pantone 485C, so your rip gives you "as close as it can" with your profile (print...not icc)

I have a decent profile and can only hit about 60% of the pantone colors. Dense dark blues and purples are just not possible to get to sometimes.
The rips job is to give simulations of those pantone colors. To see this in action, use your hated color Process Blue C and put Process Blue U right next to it.
They are different...in some color ranges the Uncoated color is MUCH different. You can run reports in Onyx that will tell you if the Pantone color is out of gamut.
It will give you the Delta E value of how close your color is to matching Pantones known measured L-a-b values. The smaller the number, the closer you are to the color.

Another good drill is to use your Pantone color bridge (you have a full set of Pantone books...right?!) and look at the color Pantone creates with only CMYK.
I know for a fact I can't hit certain spot colors....but I know my corrected color is better than the process CMYK equivalent as called out by Pantone.

With digital printing, that's all we can do. As I get good Pantone corrections, I log the DEVICE builds on a chart. Then whenever that color comes up, I know I have a good match.
I have 20 or 30 good matches so far. Device builds are gold! The beauty of them is there is no step after ripping, so no chance for a weird shift due to a profile translation.

I have been doing this kinda lol.. I have just been noting the output color when i print from photoshop to know what it really is.. Ill go back and do some more testing.

 

[altereddezignz]

I have been doing this kinda lol.. I have just been noting the output color when i print from photoshop to know what it really is.. Ill go back and do some more testing.

I have done this exactly. Yet it will not recognise it. When you rip a file in onyx it you can go into the job properties and it well tell you the called for labeled colors. For instance any pantone colors it will call out.
As you can see from the 2 images i posted. Both are saved with the same Pantone color. The tiff i have created a spot channel with the name correctly as it is in Onyx.

 

[altereddezignz]

Ok so I had to rip an illustrator file that showed the cmykro mix to produce the color I need and that is correct. I found the location in onyx to change colors. Loaded the ps file and ripped it. Opened it in job editor and selected the color to change and replaced it with the mix I was given after rip on the ai file. Printed the ai file and the corrected ps file and she printed like a charm and matched. Just a nightmare getting to this point. Now if I could just figure out the saving a spot color out of ps I could just go to a different screen in job manager in onyx and actually just select the Pantone spot color and change it to another.

 

[altereddezignz]

If anyone needs this.
1.Open file in Rip Que
2.Right click on file and send to job editor
3.Click on color correction
4.Click Tools
5.Click Color Replacement
6.Click insert or click the eye dropper
7.Select the color you want to replace
8.On the desired color column enter the color you want to print
9.Click the X
10.Click the submit printer icon.

Make sure you do not re-rip the file. If you do it will ignore any changes you made to the colors.

A few images attached.

 

[Andy_warp]

Ok so I had to rip an illustrator file that showed the cmykro mix to produce the color I need and that is correct. I found the location in onyx to change colors. Loaded the ps file and ripped it. Opened it in job editor and selected the color to change and replaced it with the mix I was given after rip on the ai file. Printed the ai file and the corrected ps file and she printed like a charm and matched. Just a nightmare getting to this point. Now if I could just figure out the saving a spot color out of ps I could just go to a different screen in job manager in onyx and actually just select the Pantone spot color and change it to another.

I've never found a way to get a spot color through photoshop...I've been using onyx since version 5 or 6.

 

[altereddezignz]

I've never found a way to get a spot color through photoshop...I've been using onyx since version 5 or 6.

Wish this comment would have been first in my questions haha.. Well i guess the only way it to learn is to do it huh!!!

Thanks maybe one day it will change and we will be able to save them directly from PS.

 

[Johnny Best]

To many large gamuts with Pantone hexachrome in Photoshop with blues. You have to tweek the color channels to get the color you are looking for. I will try your method on my RIP and see how it works. I just save my Illustrator file as a .pdf and print.

 

[altereddezignz]

To many large gamuts with Pantone hexachrome in Photoshop with blues. You have to tweek the color channels to get the color you are looking for. I will try your method on my RIP and see how it works. I just save my Illustrator file as a .pdf and print.

Illustrator is completely different. This only applies to Photoshop. Illustrator handles the pantones VERY well on my printer but it also has a massive gamut compared to most others.

The issue i have is pantones in Photoshop not Illustrator.

 

[Johnny Best]

Illustrator is completely different. This only applies to Photoshop. Illustrator handles the pantones VERY well on my printer but it also has a massive gamut compared to most others.

The issue i have is pantones in Photoshop not Illustrator.

I understand. If I produce something in Photoshop a lot of times will save it as a ,psd and place it in Illustrator and save as a .pdf.

 

[altereddezignz]

I understand. If I produce something in Photoshop a lot of times will save it as a ,psd and place it in Illustrator and save as a .pdf.

If it is coming from photoshop i think it already converts to cmyk so your already loosing the pantone color as a spot color from photoshop right?
I may be wrong here.

 

[Johnny Best]

If it is coming from photoshop i think it already converts to cmyk so your already loosing the pantone color as a spot color from photoshop right?
I may be wrong here.

I created the 2995c in PS saved it as a .psd in rgb and placed it in Illy as shown I have not printed it but on Illy it matches right on as the screen shot shows I use coated in PS and not the Pantone cmyk.

 

[altereddezignz]

I created the 2995c in PS saved it as a .psd in rgb and placed it in Illy as shown I have not printed it but on Illy it matches right on as the screen shot shows I use coated in PS and not the Pantone cmyk. View attachment 117898

Yeah mine matches as well till I sent to rip. It's not the software that makes them different or not match. They matched here all day lon in the 2 softwares. It's when you send them to rip they change what they are. Ps sent to rip changes to cmyk from a rgb or cmyk bc is not a vector or dedicated spot color. Illustrator is changed to cmyk but it is
Changed based on the Pantone color to cmyk. This is the reason illustrator prints correctly but ps does not. Now I have not done it your way to make in ps and move to ai then save and send to print. Let me know if it works. I'll have to try that on my Pantone process blue coated.

 

[shoresigns]

Here's a PSD file with PANTONE Process Blue C saved as a spot colour. Save it to TIFF with layers off and spot colours ON, then try printing it and see if your RIP recognizes it as a spot colour. If it does, then it should print the same as your spot colour from Illustrator.

 

[altereddezignz]

Here's a PSD file with PANTONE Process Blue C saved as a spot colour. Save it to TIFF with layers off and spot colours ON, then try printing it and see if your RIP recognizes it as a spot colour. If it does, then it should print the same as your spot colour from Illustrator.

Looking at this file it is the same way i was doing my file but i was using RGB. Ill try it in the morning and report back!!!

Thank you..

 

[jbtwistmywords]

This is very good info! Starting a new sign shop and this will be very beneficial, thank-you! One thing: I just don't quite understand the not sending for a new RIP process after making color tweaks in Onyx. I would have thought you would re-rip to save the chages. Anyone know why Onyx behaves this way on color tweaks?

JB

 

[altereddezignz]

The file has already been ripped. This is the reason it only allows you to change the colors with a cmyk or a Pantone direct replacement depending on what type of file your using. It uses exactly what your asking it to use when you tell it the values. The file is ripped before it goes to job editor even if you select open straight into job editor.

Hope this helps.

 

[altereddezignz]

Here's a PSD file with PANTONE Process Blue C saved as a spot colour. Save it to TIFF with layers off and spot colours ON, then try printing it and see if your RIP recognizes it as a spot colour. If it does, then it should print the same as your spot colour from Illustrator.

Here is the file i printed. It doesnt even see the pantone color from photoshop but it does from AI.
Also as you can see the cmyk mix doesnt match either lol.. The second print i have laid over the bottom is the correct pantone blue from illustrator.