Material Failure or Damaged by customer?

[Stormyj]

Definitely customer did it. but how you handle it is the question. I wouldn't want to go accusing the customer of lying, but would say that it was caused by something damaging it and maybe he thought it was a bubble. He shouldn't have tried to repair it and should have brought it to you. Offer him something like will have to charge you the cost of material, but will install it for free. That way, hopefully, hes happy, you make a little money and don't do business with him again. And he wont go out and tell people what a terrible job you do. No need for negative publicity.

 

[player]

Gino is back.

 

[Stormyj]

Tell him point blank that you can tell from experience it didn't just "pop".

Ask firmly if he knows what did the damage...get him to cop to it.

Tell him next time not to lie about it, that you are always willing to help out with an unforeseen instance like this so soon after it was a fresh install. Be sympathetic to the bad luck.

Tell him you like keeping clients happy and although you cannot repair it for free, offer it to him at a reduced rate.

I know I have a few clients i would likely replace the perf at cost for, because they are regulars and I like keeping them happy.

Word of mouth goes a long way, but your mileage may vary.

++1

 

[Techman]

This again

++ 2.

We are not required to fear a bad rep from a lie. No one should fear a bad report from one or two anyway. We are not door mats.

After living from one side of this country to the other I came to know that fearing a bad report or two is something best left to others.

 

[Billct2]

So, I've read all the recommendations, accusations, reasoning and can't find where the customer went wrong, unless he IS in fact, a bold faced liar.

You've looked at those pictures and believe it was a defect in craftsmanship or materials? You're the first out of 46 to respond that thinks it wasn't the customers fault.
And out of those other responders only 5 or 6 actually said they wouldn't fix it, more said they would and most said nothing or it's up to the OP how to handle it.

 

[Gino]

You've looked at those pictures and believe it was a defect in craftsmanship or materials? You're the first out of 46 to respond that thinks it wasn't the customers fault.
And out of those other responders only 5 or 6 actually said they wouldn't fix it, more said they would and most said nothing or it's up to the OP how to handle it.

No, I didn't say it wasn't the customer's fault, I said I don't think anyone can prove it one way or the other, especially from the photos provided. The discussion was that the customer claimed it was a flaw. Therefore, rather than call him a liar, I'd set up an appointment, tear it off and re-do it. Everyone's happy and you're out maybe $20, but made a friend for life, especially if it was an accident, poor craftsmanship or a butchered attempt on the customer's part.

As far as a few bad mouthings of someone's reputation, I'm sure we can all absorb it here and there, but why chance something for something so trivial ?? Perhaps, y'all have an inferior complex and if you admit to something ya didn't do, you're more at fault, than if ya really did do it.

Anyway, let's take a different look at this. Stand your ground, refuse to fix it, unless he coughs up $75.00 less a company discount for being a customer who admitted he'd done wrong and then you're happy. Is this company policy for you guys ?? Is this how you wanna be known ?? Fine. Nothing wrong with it, but we all know you catch more flies with honey, then vinegar. Really, who is gonna miss $20 bucks ?? If it's principle, then I think many of you hafta re-examine your business square in the face and re-think some of your priorities.

Again, I'm not saying take a hit on everything that comes back, but if you really can't be sure, like in this case, why not be the good guy and just do the right thing ??



Okay, you get a meal at your favorite restaurant. This time it's not right, but you took a few bites out of it, til you noticed it. Should they fix that piece until it's to your liking or start over..... and not charge you ?? That's the whole meal gets comped, not just a bad perf window.

 

[Joe Diaz]

We made a sandblasted signfoam sign for a client one time, acrylic paint, a brand we have had zero issues with, the good stuff. 4 years later we get an email from this client. He claims that our sign was failing. He specifically used the word "de-lamination". First of all, it wasn't a product that could de-laminate. We told him we would take a look at it. That day, on the way home for lunch, one of us who lived near by, drove by the sign and got out to take a look at it. It was obvious that the client (or someone else) had duct taped some sort of banner or something onto the bottom part of the sign to hang below it. The damage was minimal, the paint wasn't even really peeling where tape was it was just discolored as if the tape had been their too long and was reacting with paint, and it was clearly in the shape of two inch wide tape.

Once back in the office we wrote back to the client explaining that it appeared as though something was taped to the sign and we would repaint the effected area, but the sign was not failing. This client said that they didn't tape anything onto the sign and that we must have taped something to the sign during its construction. Now, I don't know if THEY did or did not tape something onto their sign, someone else could of for all we know, but I certainly know we did not and do not use tape for those types of jobs, especially 2 inch wide tape. There would be no reason for us to do that and it certainly wouldn't look fine for 4 years then all the sudden effect the paint one day.

The truth is we would have no issue repainting the problem spots, free of charge, it wasn't that big of a deal, but the blatant lie or actually the accusation that we would lie about not using duct tape on a sign was hard to ignore. The issue was resolved with no hard feelings, and we have done work for the client since, however that client now has a record in our files of 5 different occasions of paying bills late, refusing to pay late fees... and they are always looking for discounts. They want top of the line, they just don't want to have to pay full price for it. We to date still do work with this client, but we now collect payment in advance and heavily document all or our actions on their projects. There are just some people out there like that, but you certainly don't want to bend over backwards for people like that. This guy sounds similar, like he's trying to save a buck or two, which is fine, just ask and don't lie about it or blame the person you are asking to fix the problem.

 

[Billct2]

I think the photo does show it's customer damage and so does everyone else.
And I would fix it, maybe that gets me a loyal customer or maybe I get a customer who thinks he can get a freebie everytime he screws something up.

And the restaurant comparison doesn't work, it's more like I drop my entree on the floor, step on it, put it back on plate and then complain the restaurant gave me an inferior meal.

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

You could reprint it at 50% discount.

 

[Gino]

I think the photo does show it's customer damage and so does everyone else.
And I would fix it, maybe that gets me a loyal customer or maybe I get a customer who thinks he can get a freebie everytime he screws something up.

And the restaurant comparison doesn't work, it's more like I drop my entree on the floor, step on it, put it back on plate and then complain the restaurant gave me an inferior meal.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree. I don't see it your way and that isn't my lone VOTE up in the polls. I didn't vote. The way Joe's shop handled it is what I'm suggesting for the OP to do.

 

[threeputt]

My take on it is this. New customer, ok, sure, but he's so obviously lying that I'm not sure I want to set up the first business transaction with him as any kind of precedent.

ie: how bad do I want this type of customer? Our business/client model is based on mutual trust! I don't trust this guy.

Now....have we fixed jobs on our own dime that are marginal? That is, who was at fault? (installation failure, material failure, mis-communication). Yes, of course. You bet we have.

But this guy sort of rubs me the wrong way, and you know, frankly I run my business with a high degree of integrity and would walk away on this particular guy.

 

[Joe Diaz]

The way Joe's shop handled it is what I'm suggesting for the OP to do.

Which Joe? Me Joe? Our scenario was a bit different. Our client originally wanted a brand new sandblasted sign because of two small blemishes in the paint caused by the client or someone else. We didn't make a brand new sign, we repainted the problem area, which costs us much less than what the OP here would have to incur in order to repair the problem in his example. We did it mainly because we said we would before we were accused of creating the problem. We were originally just being nice. After being falsely accused of causing the issue, we seriously considered not fixing it. But repainting something like that isn't that difficult. I don't think it would cost just the $20 you think it would cost to redo the OP's job though. You cannot just patch window perf. He would need to remove all of the old graphic on that window, create a new one and install the new graphic. I don't know if our shop, in the OP's shoes, would agree to that either. It depends, (mainly on how busy we are). It would also take us away from other paying jobs. Being accused of causing the problem wouldn't help either. I wouldn't blame anyone for turning away that job, and if they have time to fix it and want to... go for it. But I wouldn't do it for fear of losing future work or harm to reputation.

Further more, I find it ironic that you warn others to not jump to conclusions about the likelihood of the client damaging the graphic, but you seem quick to accuse some on this forum as having "inferior complex". It's actually "inferiority complex" and not being willing to fix a problem you didn't cause, on your dime, has nothing to do with having an "inferiority complex"

Welcome back btw.

 

[FireSprint.com]

I would fix it. Even though it looks to me like the customer thinks blaming you is a better way to handle it then admitting he hit the vinyl with something, it doesn't matter.

Show him you stand by your product.

You posted the photos on the forum asking if we think it could be material failure. If you had no doubt why would you even ask Signs101?

Don't lose a customer over a little doubt. Who knows who he'll badmouth you to.

 

[Gino]

:Oops: my bad. Thanks for catching that spelling error. In fact, it just occurred to me, I used the wrong term entirely...... I meant superiority complex. As for being different scenarios, again, my bad. I didn't see it mentioned in your first post about it being different. In fact, my bad still yet again. I thought you made mention of your dilemma because it was similar. Forgive me for thinking what you had written had anything to do with the OP's situation. As I was commenting on observations in general, your accusations seemed to not help the OP in any case, now that you've made your position clear.

I guess we just can't agree to disagree Yeah, it's good to be back

 

[Joe Diaz]

Forgive me for thinking what you had written had anything to do with the OP's situation. As I was commenting on observations in general, your accusations seemed to not help the OP in any case, now that you've made your position clear.

No problem. You're forgiven. For the record, I made no "accusations". Also, to be clear, the connection between what happened to the OP and what happened to us was the customer accusing us and the OP of botching the job. I made that pretty clear.

This guy sounds similar, like he's trying to save a buck or two, which is fine, just ask and don't lie about it or blame the person you are asking to fix the problem.

Also, my comments weren't so much meant to be advice, just sharing a bit of solidarity between other sign makers who have also experienced the joys of being falsely accused for material failure. I'm allowed to do that right? or does the self appointed sheriff of Signs 101 require I respond to threads in specific way? I'm sure which ever choice the OP makes, to fix it for free, do it for a discount, or asked to be paid in full for fixing the problem, he'll be fine.

But I'm still siding with the majority here who think that it is much more likely that the client damaged the graphic and that the OP isn't obligated to fix it on his dime.
It's good to see you still haven't lost your ability to completely miss the point. I thought during your time away you might have improved your reading comprehension skills.

 

[TimToad]

But I'm still siding with the majority here who think that it is much more likely that the client damaged the graphic and that the OP isn't obligated to fix it on his dime.
It's good to see you still haven't lost your ability to completely miss the point. I thought during your time away you might have improved your reading comprehension skills.

I don't think Gino missed the point at all. I think some of his comments on the subject at hand are the best and least "prideful" on the thread. Maybe he isn't as articulate or as perceptive as others or might be really old with limited reading and writing skills, I don't know. I do know that a lack of high level reading and writing skills could be misconstrued as someone purposely "missing the point" by someone who really thinks a lot of himself. You are a highly respected and deservedly ego-stroked member here and in the broader sign community given your skills and unselfish nature, I think it lessens you as a person to run someone down for a trait he might not have full control over like you just did.

We're not in business to catch clients in a lie, teach them a lesson, or level accusations at them. Either fix the freakin' thing, sparing the customer any humiliation for damaging his own decal by forcing him to "cop to it" as some here are suggesting or run the risk of being perceived as hard to work with regardless of whose fault it really is. I think Gino, myself and the few others who have suggested that the OP just fix the damn thing and move on to bigger fish to fry are speaking from decades of experience and a humility based perspective.

Sure, fight on believing you're right and as the years add up and you have more of these type situations confront you and your business, you can count on your community not ignoring any trend they see on how you handle adversity or disgruntled customers NO MATTER WHO IS REALLY AT FAULT! Folks talk and other folks listen and even if untrue or onl;y partially true, what other folks say about you will come back and bite you if repeated often enough.

I personally, would schedule a time even after hours or a Saturday for the customer to bring in the vehicle and I'd have the new graphic ready to install. I would do it all myself to prove that I fully stand behind my work and that my business is serious about full customer satisfaction. With zero fanfare, confrontation or even casual questioning of "how did this really happen?" I'd fix the thing, let him get on with his day and I'd feel good about allowing him to save face and prove that I'm above such petty and trivial drama as affixing blame about a very minor problem.

I can tell you that this approach works and in my short 5 months since purchasing this business, I've had some examples of both faulty work done by my predecessor and customer damaged work coming back and I've handled exactly as I'm suggesting the OP handle it. I could have thrown up my hands and said, "I'm not responsible for what was done prior to me taking over" but I didn't.

First off, it was no great inconvenience or cost to fix things and each of the customer's respect for our shop actually grew based on the integrity I displayed. In each case, I salvaged a damaged relationship, kept a customer from going elsewhere or unfairly disparage my new venture.

Our signs aren't the only thing we are selling and unless you are the only shop in a fairly wide area which I suspect applies to some of you, you better learn how to manage your reputation and protect it, because regardless of your skills and talent it is nearly impossible to fix a bad reputation once it is damaged.

Have any of you seen the film 12 Angry Men?

If so, think back to the scenes where the jury is discussing the two key witnesses for the prosecution. The lonely old man downstairs with the limp and the old woman across the way who had bad eyes. They both suffered from vanity, insecurity and pride in not wanting to be perceived as wrong or incompetent. The OP's customer could very well be suffering from the same character flaws and just can't bear the shame of walking into the OP's shop and admitting he accidentally poked the pref with a tool or however it happened.

 

[iSign]

i don't think gino missed the point at all. I think some of his comments on the subject at hand are the best and least "prideful" on the thread. Maybe he isn't as articulate or as perceptive as others or might be really old with limited reading and writing skills, i don't know. I do know that a lack of high level reading and writing skills could be misconstrued as someone purposely "missing the point" by someone who really thinks a lot of himself. You are a highly respected and deservedly ego-stroked member here and in the broader sign community given your skills and unselfish nature, i think it lessens you as a person to run someone down for a trait he might not have full control over like you just did.

this!!

 

[Joe Diaz]

I don't think Gino missed the point at all. I think some of his comments on the subject at hand are the best and least "prideful" on the thread. Maybe he isn't as articulate or as perceptive as others or might be really old with limited reading and writing skills, I don't know. I do know that a lack of high level reading and writing skills could be misconstrued as someone purposely "missing the point" by someone who really thinks a lot of himself. You are a highly respected and deservedly ego-stroked member here and in the broader sign community given your skills and unselfish nature, I think it lessens you as a person to run someone down for a trait he might not have full control over like you just did.

I never accused him of missing the point about the original topic. He simply had one of many opinions about how to handle this problem. Nothing wrong with that. He missed the point of my comment though. Furthermore, rather than just saying "I would do this". In typical Gino style he lectures others on how their advice is wrong... but not only that, they are wrong because of an "inferior complex", inferiority complex, or superiority complex.... and now here you are with similar comments "vanity, insecurity and pride". Perhaps the OP or anyone else's decision to not fix the problem has nothing to do with your's or Gino's opinions about their psychological well being. But by all means go ahead and assume the worst. That's what Gino does.

There is nothing wrong with "fixing the damn thing and moving on." I also don't think there is anything wrong with refusing to do so, or as others have suggested offer some sort of discount, all of which our shop has done. That's because each scenario is a little different. and I can bet, there is a certain point in which even you would refuse to fix a problem that you didn't cause. And that's totally cool. It's also ironic that you would bring up "pride" as a negative influence for choosing not to do something, when you clearly seem to take pride in the reputation you have built with your clientele by offering to fix problems that you didn't cause. Nothing wrong with having pride about that.

Personally, it's hard for me to give the OP advice not knowing the client or the status of the OP's business or relationship with his clients, this is why rather than trying to tell the OP what to do, I posted a somewhat similar situation and the customer relationship that followed. The only advice I can give is fix it for free or not, but don't fix it on your dime just because you fear you might get a bad reputation. Hell some people might not like it if you won't match the prices of the high school kid cutting vinyl in his garage, but I'm guessing most aren't going to do it just because they fear that they might get the reputation of being "expensive".

 

[TimToad]

Here is the statement I took offense over:

"It's good to see you still haven't lost your ability to completely miss the point. I thought during your time away you might have improved your reading comprehension skills."

I never accused him of missing the point about the original topic. He simply had one of many opinions about how to handle this problem. Nothing wrong with that. He missed the point of my comment though. Furthermore, rather than just saying "I would do this". In typical Gino style he lectures others on how their advice is wrong... but not only that, they are wrong because of an "inferior complex", inferiority complex, or superiority complex.... and now here you are with similar comments "vanity, insecurity and pride". Perhaps the OP or anyone else's decision to not fix the problem has nothing to do with your's or Gino's opinions about their psychological well being. But by all means go ahead and assume the worst. That's what Gino does.

There is nothing wrong with "fixing the damn thing and moving on." I also don't think there is anything wrong with refusing to do so, or as others have suggested offer some sort of discount, all of which our shop has done. That's because each scenario is a little different. and I can bet, there is a certain point in which even you would refuse to fix a problem that you didn't cause. And that's totally cool. It's also ironic that you would bring up "pride" as a negative influence for choosing not to do something, when you clearly seem to take pride in reputation you have built with your clientele by offering to fix problems that you didn't cause. Nothing wrong with having pride about that.

Personally, it's hard for me to give the OP advice not knowing the client or the status of the OP's business or relationship with his clients, this is why rather than trying to tell the OP what to do, I posted a somewhat similar situation and the customer relationship that followed. The only advice I can give is fix it for free or not, but don't fix it on your dime just because you fear you might get a bad reputation. Hell some people might not like it if you won't match the prices of the high school kid cutting vinyl in his garage, but I'm guessing most aren't going to do it just because they fear that they might get the reputation of being "expensive".

I wasn't speaking about the OP's state of mind. I was talking about the customer's possible state of mind and even used the 12 Angry Men film example to illustrate it. Don't jump me or Gino about missing a point when you yourself appear to have done so. In the short time I've been here and after reading many of Gino's comments I've concluded that this might not be a person with high level reading or writing skills and that my friend is not something a dignified adult jumps on to get one over on somebody. Or to make oneself feel superior to. Especially when you get all the positive affirmation and ego stroking a young man of your age and skill level not only deserves, but should make you know better.

We are in total agreement about each case being different and everyone being entitled to handle it as they see fit and I certainly can understand someone's hesitancy to bend over backwards for a customer they believe is lying. But in reality, we're talking about a minimal cost problem with a very low risk, high reward solution potential for the OP. IMO, digging his heals in too hard to make his point or to not feel taken advantage of just doesn't seem worth the fuss over such a small fix.

Especially when the risk is so huge if the OP takes too hard a line, the customer misconstrues it and is the type that is going to tell everybody he knows about how he perceived the confrontation.

Am I suggesting we shudder in fear and not stand up for ourselves and our policies? No, not at all. I'm simply suggesting that we need to weigh the risk/reward ratio that this type of situation presents.

I don't think you quite understood the reference to "pride" and its implications when we cling to it too closely like a big shield against appearing weak or indecisive, which I do think is a small part of why the OP opened the thread to begin with. He had doubts about what to do, didn't have a solid plan of action or policy already in place and wanted to know how to protect himself from getting taken advantage of.

I do things the way I do them out of embracing a value system based on integrity, accountability and dedication to full customer satisfaction. My "pride" comes after I've applied those principles in my day to day and seen the positive results of said actions, not before. Its a feeling a get from doing good, not a character trait I tout. My values also aren't cymbals I go around beating all day to make sure the world knows about them. My world sees them in action, not talked or bragged about. The kind of "pride" I was referring to has more to do with possessing a sense, deserved or otherwise of superiority over others. I don't consider that type a virtue.

You and your family are free to run your business as you see fit as is the OP, myself or even Gino is. You have the luxury of being born into a hard working, highly skilled family that has operated in a fairly small, limited competition market place for quite a long time. Not everyone we share these pages has been so fortunate. Your business's reaction to a similar scenario might be far different if you were in a big city with tons of equally or higher skilled competition AND many kids in their garages lowballing everybody also.

My ultimate point was and still is, there really is no right or wrong answer for how the OP should handle this, just the one that makes the most sense to him and in the end preserves his good standing in the particular marketplace he plies his trade in.

I think we've worn this one out, so I'm going to get my weekend going and walk the dog. Have a good one.

 

[iSign]

Welcome back btw.

ya coulda said as much by simply posting "welcome back..... from Pontiac.................................................."

...then it least it might have been amusing

I'm not going to work as hard as Tim did, (very well said again though, Tim.... whoever you are) but I will weigh in on this drama again, because as much as the typical connotation for "drama" is a negative one... it's the underbelly of civilized society... and the messier parts of when things go awry, is where way to many "civilized' folks become unable, or unwilling to talk about things... or at least unwilling to hear others talk...

...so, I think for as much as you typed (and whatever was later edited I'm not sure about) it seems like the whole exchange with Gino had very little purpose, and as Tim said, it reflected very poorly on yourself. I've seen you take the high road many times when provoked... hell, almost every time... way more than I ever could... but this time you weren't provoked (IMHO) and yet this time you took the low road...


ok, one more little point I want to make ...and for those who might otherwise miss a sports analogy, if a player is charged with 6 fouls in the NBA... he is ejected from the game, so a player with 5 fouls is going to be less likely to risk going head to head in the sketchier exchanges down under the basket... he's going to have to play it a little safe... and a good STRATEGY ("good" in competitive sports anyway) for his opponents would be to rush that guy, maybe risk throwing him a little more elbow, a little more contact... a little goading perhaps...


so, the way I see it, you are goading a guy who is here, on his best behavior after 5 fouls... and are doing so more because of history (IMHO) then any real affront today...

...and no, I don't think it reflects well on a guy I have otherwise always admired for being well spoken, and non confrontational