Profiling...Been At this for a year, no luck

[dayusmc]

You seem a bit confused with the whole input and output profile thing.

Just think of profiles as an 'interpretation' to go from one device to another. See the image attached.

When an image is created in say Photoshop or a scanner it is assigned a profile so another device will know how it should look. In most cases when someone gives you a file you won't know what profiles it's been assigned so you have to guess and use the Photoshop standards - US Web Coated (Swop) v2 for CMYK and sRGB IEC61966-2.1 for RGB. You can always experiment here if you like to see what happens.

You will also usually be given the option to choose a rendering intent.
Relative colorimetric is usually your best option here, or try perceptual if you want to see what difference it makes. Use the same intent for vectors and bitmaps or you might get different colour when images and vectors are mixed together in a document.

The output profile will be the profile specifically created for your printer, ink and media. No need to change this just make sure it's accurate and the correct one.

I understand what the input profile is suppose to do. But you are right, I am confused. Where I am confused is when it will affect my print. For example, In SignLab I have an option for color management- I can turn it off, original, enhanced or custom. Does this affect my print? If I set it to off what Input profile gets used? Also If my friend builds me a file (In SignLab) and sends it to me does the profile come with it? All these things would make a hugh difference on my print I think. I did some test prints yesturday with the Color Management settings (Not in the RIP, but in the Regular singlab part). I made a couple of boxes, colored one RGB 255 Red and the other Red M100 Y100, I then sent these to the Print (Using signlabs VPM) I printed them with different settings in color management and they all printed the same. But I know in the past, when I messed with that setting it did change the print. So I am wondering, is there something in the VPM that is changing that now? Understanding how Signlab uses its color management is key because that is the only way to know that you are creating a profile without "Input Profile Infulence" Also, wondering if someone sends me a file- How can I tell if it has an embbeded profile and what it is?

Again Thank you everyone for your input, I am learning A LOT!!

 

[heyskull]

There is way to many adjustments in signlab.
Signlab is no good for printing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cadlink are no help as it is way to difficult to understand and set up.

I remember being at a sign show in the UK about 4 years ago and I was ranting about Signlabs RIP.
Little did I know the guy who programmed it was behind me!
At least that is what the tech said. The guy went of in a mood!

When Signlab 7.1 came out it was just like all of the previous versions of Signlab, it was not ready to be published.
Cadlink seem to hope that they can develop their products on their customers.
It took me 6 months to get a Cadlink rep down to our premises.
He thought he was going to be on our site for half an hour!
Seven and half hours later he left!!!

I have no idea why they have made it so difficult to set up or maybe it just doesn't work!!!!

Sorry for my rant but I would rather use crayons than use signlab to print with!

SC

 

[Rodi]

Can you do your design in Signlab and then save out as pdf/eps and go with VersaWorks? That would be a good thing, you know both of the programs.

 

[dayusmc]

I am going to try and design in signlab and print ant cut in versaworks. Singlab has a new version out- it is signlab 8 with direct tools to print in versaworks. I am going to try and get them to give me the files to convert my signlab to do that.

 

[bbeens]

I understand what the input profile is suppose to do. But you are right, I am confused. Where I am confused is when it will affect my print. For example, In SignLab I have an option for color management- I can turn it off, original, enhanced or custom. Does this affect my print? If I set it to off what Input profile gets used? Also If my friend builds me a file (In SignLab) and sends it to me does the profile come with it? All these things would make a hugh difference on my print I think.

I am not a SignLab person at all, but generally when color management is set to OFF, this mean both the input and output profiles are ignored. Meaning the values assigned in the file (255,0,0 - or 0, 100, 100, 0) will pass through to the printer as is. Note: different rips will handle the conversion from RGB to CMYK in their own way and most likely you will not like the results. With CMYK files you may see better results with color management turned off, specifically vector type files.

A file may contain the profile when saved if the profile was 'embedded'. This can be done in Corel and PS, Illy etc. I recommend this to almost anyone I support. You may need to tell your Rip to utilize embedded profiles when present.

One other thing to look at, some rips will allow for different input profiles/rendering intents for Vector vs. Raster data. This may account for some of your odd testing results mentioned earlier in this thread. I recommend setting both to the same rendering intent unless you are confident you understand the reasoning behind setting them differently.

Bryan

 

[Bly]

Turning ICC profiles off will print without adjusting colours in your file, using only linearisation. Therefore 50% cyan in your file is printed as 50% cyan and not adjusted to what that colour 'should' be. Usually gives you brighter colours and I use it a bit for people who just want nice bright prints. An accurate linearisation is crucial though.

 

[dayusmc]

I am not a SignLab person at all, but generally when color management is set to OFF, this mean both the input and output profiles are ignored. Meaning the values assigned in the file (255,0,0 - or 0, 100, 100, 0) will pass through to the printer as is. Note: different rips will handle the conversion from RGB to CMYK in their own way and most likely you will not like the results. With CMYK files you may see better results with color management turned off, specifically vector type files.

A file may contain the profile when saved if the profile was 'embedded'. This can be done in Corel and PS, Illy etc. I recommend this to almost anyone I support. You may need to tell your Rip to utilize embedded profiles when present.

One other thing to look at, some rips will allow for different input profiles/rendering intents for Vector vs. Raster data. This may account for some of your odd testing results mentioned earlier in this thread. I recommend setting both to the same rendering intent unless you are confident you understand the reasoning behind setting them differently.

Bryan

SignLab Print & Cut is actully 2 programs bundled into one. In the Design part, you have color management. I believe (Not Sure) that that is the Workspace color management. The other part of SignLab is there RIP or VPM as they call it. This is where you can handel print mode packages (Their profiles) Inside of the print mode package, there are spots for icc profiles (input and output profiles) there is also an option in the print mode package for the input profile to use "Get from print mode". So you see, there are alot of different options and no clear cut answers for what they actully do. SignLabs Techs are great (To be honest, that is the only reason I have stayed with SignLab so far) but to be fair, everyone of us specialize in differnet areas- so they can't know everything. There are even features in SignLab that have been shown at shows that the techs don't even know about. The Techs at signlab are great, but they can only do so much.

So with all those setting and no clear cut answers on really what setting overrides the other, you can see why I came here for help. I know my posts are a little hard to understand and I might not explain everything the "Right" way. It might seem like I am "Over examinging or overthinking" everything. I am not an artists or even a profesonal signmaker, so I don't know the lingo. So thank you everyone for being patiant with me.

As a side note- When I first started printing and cutting 18mil think prints (6 base 12 laminate) and my Roland would not cut it. I called everywhere and talked to everyone. No one had the same problem as me and everyone thought I was crazy. It was a software setting (Real deep in signlabs VPM almost imposible to find) that was readjusting my preasure. I had techs over and none could figure it out. Some people said that the roland couldn't cut that thick of material- but I knew people that were cutting it with the same printer. So the short of the long is- I am capable of understanding what is going on and following the instuctions that everyone gives me but sometimes need to ask more questions because the problem is deeper than we all think.

I talked to someone (The person that I buy my ink from) and he uses ERGOSOFT rip. He said it is really good and can get colors better than anything else. I know "What is the best RIP" is an Opinion. But one of the things he said was so good about it, was that it was real easy to use. So does anyone have any input about what is the best RIP out there(I am asking incase I have to buy a different RIP if I can't get versaworks to profile good). I Print, than laminate and than cut and my machine is a Roland SP300v. I am looking for what will give the best colors and be pretty easy to use.

Thank you everyone again for dealing with my long posts. You guys are Great!!! :U Rock:

 

[bbeens]

I would think the 'Get from print mode' might be the same as using the embedded profile if present. I do understand color management quite well, I've been supporting customers for the last 5 years with much the same questions as you are asking. As for what rip is best, I am biased as I work for Wasatch, but I'd suggest you check out Softrip if you haven't already.

Bryan

 

[dayusmc]

I would think the 'Get from print mode' might be the same as using the embedded profile if present. I do understand color management quite well, I've been supporting customers for the last 5 years with much the same questions as you are asking. As for what rip is best, I am biased as I work for Wasatch, but I'd suggest you check out Softrip if you haven't already.

Bryan

I think get from print mode means that it is taking the input profile (or lack of profile) that was used when the profile was made. I there are also also options to direguard embedded profiles. A LOT of settings, but what setting override the other- it can get confusing real fast. My one friend uses Wasatch, He does mostly screenprinting and vinyl cutting. I found it a little hard to use.

 

[astro8]

Hey dayusmc...I've come to the conclusion that to ease your way out of this 'mess' you're in is to upgrade your Signlab, if need be, to a level where you can 'send to Versaworks' for print and cut if you want that convenience, if not don't bother. You had better check with Cadlink and see if this option is actually available and functional or if it's just heresay or rumour.

But ....try making a profile in vesaworks now (you have the documentation to do this) and see if it's acceptable. If you are getting the same unacceptable results that you are through Signlab, then you'll have to look at something other than Signlab that is causing your profiling problems. This could be any number of things, but through simple deduction Dear Watson, you'll get closer to exposing the culprit.

Versaworks is good RIP, no need to pay out thousands more for Ergosoft or Onyx or whatever for the sake of it.

It's no different than a way a lot of us here do things. Design in one or many programmes and export as an .eps or .pdf ( some .pdf export filters don't support it properly) with a 'cutcontour' named colour as your cutting path and print and cut through the RIP.

You are on the merry-go-round at the moment, but you are learning and that is a good thing ....maybe not the way that you had hoped ahahahah!

 

[heyskull]

I'm now designing in Signlab and Printing with Wasatch.
It colour matches as good as you will need.
Please do not expect any RIP to be perfect as when you adjust one colour it will always change another!

I wouldn't upgrade Signlab as the RIP is useless.
My personal opinion based on what we have done is just use Signlab for designing and cutting.
We save as an EPS file and print on Wasatch.

 

[Bly]

Yeah if you only have the one Roland best off using Versaworks to print as it does most things an expensive rip does and it's free.
I use Onyx but use it to run 5 different printers and a cutter.

 

[dayusmc]

Hey dayusmc...I've come to the conclusion that to ease your way out of this 'mess' you're in is to upgrade your Signlab, if need be, to a level where you can 'send to Versaworks' for print and cut if you want that convenience, if not don't bother. You had better check with Cadlink and see if this option is actually available and functional or if it's just heresay or rumour.

But ....try making a profile in vesaworks now (you have the documentation to do this) and see if it's acceptable. If you are getting the same unacceptable results that you are through Signlab, then you'll have to look at something other than Signlab that is causing your profiling problems. This could be any number of things, but through simple deduction Dear Watson, you'll get closer to exposing the culprit.

Versaworks is good RIP, no need to pay out thousands more for Ergosoft or Onyx or whatever for the sake of it.

It's no different than a way a lot of us here do things. Design in one or many programmes and export as an .eps or .pdf ( some .pdf export filters don't support it properly) with a 'cutcontour' named colour as your cutting path and print and cut through the RIP.

You are on the merry-go-round at the moment, but you are learning and that is a good thing ....maybe not the way that you had hoped ahahahah!

When signlabs Tech emailed me yesturday, I asked him about getting the option to send to versaworks for my Signlab. He said I could get it and to call the sales department. I called the sales department and I am waiting for them to call me back. The funny thing about it- I have the most expensive Signlab (with spot foil add in) already. The ontion to "send to versaworks" is on a lower version signlab. So I have to pay to add this option in.I have spent about $14,000 with Signlab already and now I am going to have to pay more for an option that is on a lower signlab version- I am not happy about this. We will see what the salesman tells me when they call me back. But I think you are right, use versaworks and set up a profile. If that works, we know it was signlabs RIP. I am also rebuild another computer (different model), I want to see if the computer model has something to do with it- I doudt it does, but can't hurt to try.the only thig left after that is the i1, but if all else fails I will send my i1 back to x-rite.

Question- after I build a profile, what is the best way to check it for acuracy? My idea was to print some pantone colors and compair them to my pantone book.up to this point, I haven't worried about an acuracy test because it is so far off you don't need to compair it to know it is bad.

 

[dayusmc]

Well- I Got It

Well turns out it was SignLabs RIP that was giving me the problem. I made a quick profile in VersaWorks and it is WAY better. I haven't printed my whole swatch chart off yet (So I don't now how the greys are) but the Red is Red, not pail pink. Signlab called me back today and I bought the files to make my signlab have the additional options of "print to versaworks". I know it is not needed, but I like convenience. I know SignLab is working on improving their RIP, but personally I find their stuff has to many layers. They need to stop having menus and options buried inside of each other. They have alot of features in their RIP that look like they got the idea from versaworks, but it is still to complicated. But unless they can get the color issue and sabiltity down it is no good in my option.

Well atleast I know that I am not a complete idiot. I guess I just should have just tried this a long time ago.

 

[Neil]

Hi dayusmc, just came across this thread so thought I'd chime in.
I wrote that step by step on the Cadlink site so I can help you with it if you want.

Thanks to Astro for pointing you at it and for helping you along. I created that tutorial as a way of documenting the process that I use to get the best printmodes/color management out of Signlab.

It is complicated and needs to be followed to the letter, but the results are worth it. You only need to set it up once, and you only need 1 or 2 good printmodes (profiles) and your set.

It is a good rip capable of output equal or better than OEM rips, and it integrates well with Signlab for a simple print/cut workflow.
But you really need to set up your own color management and create your own output profiles for it to be any good.

The supplied printmodes that I've looked at are good for driving the printer, altering speed/passes/heaters/resolution and all the other mechanical options you need, but are lacking in the color output department. There's no individual ink restrictions, which in turn means poor linearization curves, which ends with bad output profiles.
IMO, this all means Signlab's supplied printmodes and color management setup delivers poor quality output - too much ink, colors that are way off what they should be and nothing like "what you see is what you get".

Fortunately they give you all the ingredients and options to make your own fully customised color management, printmodes and profiles. If you can get your head around this you will have output that is as good as it gets - True WYSIWYG, accurate CMYK vectors, and bitmap images that print as intended. All with just the right amount of ink laid down.

So stick with it - before you chuck it all in for another rip let's see if we can sort out what's wrong here first.
I'd suggest to start off, create a new file which has a good test image in it (bitmap containing people, grayscales etc.) along with a CMYK vector swatch - so you can see what's really happening when you make changes. PM me and I'll send you the file I use if you want.

Then set up your color management to how I showed in the tutorial and SAVE IT - give it a name then press save custom settings, then set it as default.

Find a good starting printmode with the resolution/passes you want (I'd suggest 720 x 720 8 pass).

Keep us posted or else PM me if something's getting too in depth.

 

[astro8]

Hey Neil, thanks for coming to the rescue.
I'd hope you would log in soon enough but thought you may be off holidaying somewhere!

 

[Neil]

G'day Astro, yep been surfing and golfing and not working, but thats slowly changing back to reality unfortunately people keep ringing up wanting signs done!

I'm glad to see you could follow the step by step - even though you don't use that rip. And Dayusmc has done a good job getting through it all too but something is amiss there. He has PM'd me so we might yet get to the bottom of this. It'd be nice to know there's someone else in the world besides me that can make it work!

 

[dayusmc]

Came In

My New SingLab Print & Cut 8 Build 10 with VersaWorks Option Came in today. I am installing it now. I am going to make a New Profile this weekendow and see how everything goes. I will keep everyone posted on how everything turns out.

 

[dayusmc]

Well it has been awhile since I got my new SignLab for VersaWorks. I have been busy at work, so I never got time to profile with VersaWorks until now. I am getting grainy colors, and some banding. I tried both Templates when profiling, still no luck. I have to say- THIS IS A PAIN IN THE BUTT!!!!!!

 

[Neil]

Do any of the canned Versaworks profiles work well?
Did you use this as a starting profile?

Grainy colors could be incorrect variable dot placement or error diffusion - all set in the original profile.
Banding could be from bad max ink setting or no. of passes.

What program are you using to generate the output icc?