The Bad Wrap update

[Circleville Signs]

This is a wrap design philosophy question....

For many of us (Colorado, ProWraps, Dan Antonelli, myself) designing wraps is much more about what NOT to include than what to include. I have seen VERY FEW full wraps that successfully utilize raster based imagery.

When you start using client photos, you end up with a mess of a wrap on your hands. Period.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

casey. you build computers.

i wrap hundreds of cars a year.

im glad you are here to guide me and colorado on how to do our jobs.

cause clearly, you know how to do it much better than we do.

Chris, are you implying that I do not belong in this discussion? I shouldn't have an opinion because I don't lay my hands on vinyl daily?

I am in no way trying to tell you that I know how to wrap vehicles better than any of you. I have had a hand at it and it is definitely not my gig. I would never say that.

What I will say is that being that I specialize in building computers for graphics, sign, and wrap shops. I am completely and fully versed in Photoshop, Illustrator, and the processes that go into putting a design to the RIP.

I have setup many graphic/print shops and work-flows, experimented with different scenarios, and have my opinions on what works best. I have several hundred hours testing and implementing different processes in graphic and print shops. I have redesigned the graphic work-flows of some very large graphic design companies and saved them time and money. Some of them thought, just as you seem to, that they were doing everything correctly and were above suggestions, but they sure were appreciative when I saved them time and money. I am just putting my opinions out there. You can listen to my opinions or let them in one ear and out the other. It doesn't benefit or hurt me either way.

I like to help folks in this industry if I can. Like I said, I don't wrap anything, but I sure do know computers and their capabilities / limitations pretty well in the field of graphic design. If my knowledge and experience can help anyone, I am more than happy to do so.

You say "better than we do", but I can assure you that "we" does not apply to the entire field of vehicle wrap designers. While I have seen many different ways to go about this, the process I choose is a pretty accepted and supported process. It is not THE ONLY WAY (or your way apparently), but it is a pretty good way.

 

[jkdbjj]

Well, if I had to choose a side, it would be to use Illustrator. And simply link rather than embed to raster elements to keep the file size manageable. That has been our method up til now. As far as effects in Illustrator, I try to not do that, but do them in PS and again simply link to the image file.

My two cents...

 

[SignBurst PCs]

This is a wrap design philosophy question....

For many of us (Colorado, ProWraps, Dan Antonelli, myself) designing wraps is much more about what NOT to include than what to include. I have seen VERY FEW full wraps that successfully utilize raster based imagery.

When you start using client photos, you end up with a mess of a wrap on your hands. Period.

And I would NEVER question that design philosophy.

 

[HulkSmash]

Casey, let me give you an example. In the attached image.
Everything is vector except the images. I took the images into Photoshop, cut them out,
faded where needed. Saved them individually. Dropped them where i needed them in illustrator...and... we had a wrap. that's 3 raster layers compared to like 19 in illustrator. there is absolutely no way i would do this in Photoshop. It's just so much better do these things in illustrator, and you don't have to fiddle around with selecting the wrong layer or what not. The biggest issue with photoshop is if you want a super crisp image, you have to save a high DPI, making it slow to load... I just like the crisp illustrator files..with no pixels. just overall less complex, and more professional.

 

[MatthewTimothy]

^^ nice

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Casey, let me give you an example. In the attached image.
Everything is vector except the images. I took the images into Photoshop, cut them out,
faded where needed. Saved them individually. Dropped them where i needed them in illustrator...and... we had a wrap. that's 3 raster layers compared to like 19 in illustrator. there is absolutely no way i would do this in Photoshop. It's just so much better do these things in illustrator, and you don't have to fiddle around with selecting the wrong layer or what not. The biggest issue with photoshop is if you want a super crisp image, you have to save a high DPI, making it slow to load... I just like the crisp illustrator files..with no pixels. just overall less complex, and more professional.

Love the design Colorado. You are completely correct, this can be done in Illustrator just fine. Your design is mostly vector with couple basic raster images.

But I argue that I could easily do the same thing in Photoshop. In the printed file, you would see no difference in image quality or resolution. You are printing these to output devices that are not capable of vector resolution anyhow. Most often ~75ppi is more than adequate. Rarely can a difference be seen between a 75ppi image vs the same image at 150ppi or 300ppi after run through the rip and printer. The only downfall of the Photoshop file is size.

I suppose that being fluent with both, I choose Photoshop with support from Illustrator for performance reasons (time) and the increased flexibility. Either way, you are going to be bouncing between the two programs dealing with the vector and raster. I don't even deal with text in Illustrator anymore. Photoshop is perfectly capable of producing clean clear text without bouncing to Illustrator. I can create vector paths (and masks) in Photoshop as well. I do bounce to Illustrator to increase the size of a vector logo, but again, I just use it as a smart object, scale it, and click save. The lines are being blurred between vector and raster with both programs being able to being able to cross over (i.e. Photoshop effects in Illustrator), but I choose to use the application that can use all the RAM that I have stuffed into my computer's, multiple CPU cores, and even my video card (GPU) to speed everything up. Until Adobe does that with Illustrator, I am going to be bias.

 

[Gino]

Well, I have a question for any of you.

I've noticed over the years, that a shadow created in Illustrator looks and works far better than one created in Photoshop. Is it my imagination or am I missing something ?? You'd think a shadow created in Photoshop would look and work better than the other way around.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

I don't remember what got me on this rant. Crap, if it works for you, don't change it. I am just offering a different approach in case yours isn't working for you. What do I care how you do it?

Oh yeah, The Bad Wrap. Not a bad deal if you know how to use it. If you are a Illustrator guy or gal and not comfortable in Photoshop, it may take a bit to get a handle on it.

If you don't know Photoshop very well and you are strictly using Illustrator, it might be a good idea to learn a bit about Photoshop. It is the other side of the same coin. When you use them together (however you decide to do it), they are a beautiful thing.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Well, I have a question for any of you.

I've noticed over the years, that a shadow created in Illustrator looks and works far better than one created in Photoshop. Is it my imagination or am I missing something ?? You'd think a shadow created in Photoshop would look and work better than the other way around.

I can't tell you what you are doing wrong without knowing what you are doing. Are you talking about drop shadows? In Photoshop, you aren't limited to just creating a shadow. Being the flexible program that it is, you can create dozens of variations of the same shadow. But honestly, you can simply create great shadows in Photoshop simply using the layer blending options. Done correctly, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between an image printed from a Photoshop file or Illustrator file these days. With so much vector being implemented in Photoshop and so many complicated, intricate vector images, I have a very hard time telling the difference in quality of either after printing.

These aren't the same programs you used 5 years ago. They have both become very capable pieces of software that work together almost flawlessly.

 

[formanek]

The average person is smart enough to understand the difference between a fast food joint and a real dine-in restaurant. However, that understanding of differences often does not extend to customers buying signs or vehicle wraps. They just want the cheapest price regardless when they're comparing apples to oranges between what one shop and another produces.

It's often easier to talk sense into a customer about a lighted sign (things like UL Listing, proper quality components, total cost of ownership, etc.) than it is regarding a wrap. A vehicle wrap done on the cheap and fast will have differences that are not obvious to customers.

You have obviously never owned a restaurant. People ask me everyday for catering prices and they want something delivered for $5 per person. I start at $9. They say McDonald's or Subway does it for that price. I tell them to drive all 150ppl through the drive thru then.

 

[Joe Diaz]

So I have a few questions, because I thought I knew what Bad Wrap was then I started to read all of this and now I'm confused.

Is it just the vehicle templates?
or are there textures included too?

Is it just for adobe?
Are they photoshop file formats?
Is it software or a plugin?

Can you buy individual vehicle templates as you need them?
Or do you have to buy the entire collection?
and if so, it sounds as though there have been issues with keeping the collection up-to-date. How so?
How long does it take for them to update the collection?
How vast is the Collection?
How exactly are the dimensions wrong?


We don't do a lot of full wraps, but we do a lot of vehicle graphics and lettering. Nice accurate vehicle templates could be handy at our shop. We have always used our own photos and measurements. Having pre-made templates would save time but only if we were sure the measurements were right. If we have to check if they are accurate every time then re-size everything when it isn't, we might as well have just done it ourselves.

Also getting individual templates would make more sense for us, that is why I wonder about that. In our neck of the woods 95% of the vehicles are Ford, GM or Chrysler, so almost anything else would be a waste for us. Also we do a lot of semi trucks. Are the big rigs being represented? I have absolutely no need for fills or effects, so that is why I asked about that too. Of course if we use Corel, and this system doesn't work with Corel, then that too would play a roll on whether or not we ever decide to try bad wrap.

 

[HulkSmash]

So I have a few questions, because I thought I knew what Bad Wrap was then I started to read all of this and now I'm confused.

Is it just the vehicle templates?
or are there textures included too?

Is it just for adobe?
Are they photoshop file formats?
Is it software or a plugin?

Can you buy individual vehicle templates as you need them?
Or do you have to buy the entire collection?
and if so, it sounds as though there have been issues with keeping the collection up-to-date. How so?
How long does it take for them to update the collection?
How vast is the Collection?
How exactly are the dimensions wrong?


We don't do a lot of full wraps, but we do a lot of vehicle graphics and lettering. Nice accurate vehicle templates could be handy at our shop. We have always used our own photos and measurements. Having pre-made templates would save time but only if we were sure the measurements were right. If we have to check if they are accurate every time then re-size everything when it isn't, we might as well have just done it ourselves.

Also getting individual templates would make more sense for us, that is why I wonder about that. In our neck of the woods 95% of the vehicles are Ford, GM or Chrysler, so almost anything else would be a waste for us. Also we do a lot of semi trucks. Are the big rigs being represented? I have absolutely no need for fills or effects, so that is why I asked about that too. Of course if we use Corel, and this system doesn't work with Corel, then that too would play a roll on whether or not we ever decide to try bad wrap.

http://www.provehicleoutlines.com/
$200 for any template you want.

worth every single penny. most accurate templates I've ever come across

 

[Gino]

I can't tell you what you are doing wrong without knowing what you are doing. Are you talking about drop shadows? In Photoshop, you aren't limited to just creating a shadow. Being the flexible program that it is, you can create dozens of variations of the same shadow. But honestly, you can simply create great shadows in Photoshop simply using the layer blending options. Done correctly, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between an image printed from a Photoshop file or Illustrator file these days. With so much vector being implemented in Photoshop and so many complicated, intricate vector images, I have a very hard time telling the difference in quality of either after printing.

These aren't the same programs you used 5 years ago. They have both become very capable pieces of software that work together almost flawlessly.

Nope, not what I'm talking about.

Let say you have a word in white copy. You wanna put a blue outline around it. Then you want to add a gradient drop shadow to it. With a design like Color's, you want to drop this word into an Illy file. However it might be passing over two background colors on the layout. The shadow will actually change colors and not be a realistic shadow if completed in Photoshaop and dumped into Illy, where if you create the whole thing in Illy, it will portray perfect shadowing over any number of varying backgriund color.


Maybe this will help...........

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Is it just the vehicle templates? Yes, photographic vehicle templates (currently)
or are there textures included too? Not that I am aware of.

Is it just for adobe? Supported on Photoshop or Flexi 10 (currently)
Are they photoshop file formats? Layered .tiffs (currently)
Is it software or a plugin? Neither really, just layered .tiffs setup as vehicle templates for design.(currently)

Can you buy individual vehicle templates as you need them? Some at sign.com (as far as I know). May soon change to all templates if the new team changes things.
Or do you have to buy the entire collection?
and if so, it sounds as though there have been issues with keeping the collection up-to-date. How so? Weren't always individual downloads available and as the collection changed ownership, updates were very slow.
How long does it take for them to update the collection? Variable in the past, will soon change to very quickly.
How vast is the Collection? Limited to a few years, but again, that is changing with new ownership.
How exactly are the dimensions wrong? All templates are going to be iffy at best, especially outlines becuase of hte curvatures involved in vehicles. Always best to measure to be exact.

I say currently to a lot of the questions because the software is rumored to be changing owners and potentials design.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Nope, not what I'm talking about.

Let say you have a word in white copy. You wanna put a blue outline around it. Then you want to add a gradient drop shadow to it. With a design like Color's, you want to drop this word into an Illy file. However it might be passing over two background colors on the layout. The shadow will actually change colors and not be a realistic shadow if completed in Photoshaop and dumped into Illy, where if you create the whole thing in Illy, it will portray perfect shadowing over any number of varying backgriund color.


Maybe this will help...........

To tell you the truth, in my work-flow, I would create it all in PS and it would be perfect shadowing. I rarely do anything in Illustrator, especially PS effects such as a drop shadow. I would create the text, background, and the shadow in Photoshop. I don't see any reason to bring Illustrator into that situation.

For arguments sake, I might create the text in Illy and drag it into my main design in Photoshop, then use blending options to create the shadow. But since the shadow is being created in the native program (Photoshop), it will look as it should.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Thanks for answering Casey!
And thanks Colorado Signs too. We actually have used pro vehicle outlines in the past for some concepts.

Here is another concern I have. To be honest with you the name plus the brand and marketing have always pushed me away from taking a serious look at this software or templates, or what ever it is. If they hope to win over graphic designers I would hope to see their image reflect that in the future. To me, when I see their logo and ads in fellers, I think of cluttered race car graphics or the typical busy wraps. They seem to be promoting that style, (all of fellers seems to).

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Thanks for answering Casey!
And thanks Colorado Signs too. We actually have used pro vehicle outlines in the past for some concepts.

Here is another concern I have. To be honest with you the name plus the brand and marketing have always pushed me away from taking a serious look at this software or templates, or what ever it is. If they hope to win over graphic designers I would hope to see their image reflect that in the future. To me, when I see their logo and ads in fellers, I think of cluttered race car graphics or the typical busy wraps. They seem to be promoting that style, (all of fellers seems to).

Agreed.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I use the pro vehicle outlines ... little easier for proofing for the customer and designing without taking a million measurements and finding out where all the problem spots are hands on. I would use bad wraps for proofing out but not really for designing. I like the idea of getting a white vehicle to rough fit graphics for a customer in ... but most don't give to flips ... I just take a photo of the clients car and throw the wrap (or partial wrap) on the vehicle about where I plan it to go ... they get the idea.

 

[Gino]

So, which do you prefer ??