Various Sign Making Questions

[Techman]

I am going to apprentice at a sign shop in NY this July. These are just things I am trying to learn and get clarification on, I do not have any pending jobs and need quick answers.

Go apprentice for a few weeks.
You will find out you have no clue. You will find out that printing big sheets is not sign making. Then go back and continue to develop your photography skills.
Focus is what you need to do. Not expand yoru services. All that will do is spread yourself thin and make you barely adequate in both endeavors.

 

[Perks]

"I see some signs mounted to exterior walls with no visible hardware or fasteners showing. How is this accomplished? "

Stud mount from back by drilling your material with appropriate size bit, tapping the threads, then glue and screw in your threaded rod lengths(1"-3") You must use a paper or cardboard pattern for transfering your sign's stud marks to the wall so those holes match for drilling if necessary. Plastic pads can also be used if you do not want to drill but you wil have to tape until adhesive between pad and wall dries.:signs101:

 

[CentralSigns]

here we go again...bash the newbie. mellisa, the real reason they bash you is they are afraid you or someone like you will compete with them...
this site is good and there is lots of info here. there is also a lot of butthead attitude here. i see bullying for what it is and get what i want or need here anyway despite it.

mark galoob:Welcome:

Hey What's up with that Galoog. Your the one bullying as I expect that comment was for me. I wasn't bashing, "Ya jerk", I was only explaining that it's not that easy. You need to know whats involved before you outsource stuff. It's important to understand the product and how its made. This info along with the suggestion that she apprentice first was only, an attempt to help her not loose her shirt due to a lack of understanding of our materials, products, and installation practices.

There are hackers out there everyday posing as sign companies. As suggested in Dan's reply it is happening all over. My comments were only stated to same money and embarrassment over pricing ordering and installation. I really consider your comment an insult directed my way.

 

[Melissam2505]

Thank you to those of you who have offered nice advice here and in PM.

I won't lose focus, they make pills for that.

I am a tough Texas girl, I can take it. I am glad I did not listen to the old school photographers who told me I stood no chance 12 years ago. Who told me it was too much to learn, a hard industry etc. I would have lost out on having a great business in which I love. I have built up my business on my own and support myself, being single.

Don't lump me in a category based on three questions. I have my act together more than you know.

I am one of the higher priced photographers in town, there is no way I would do business any other way. I know what it takes to cover costs and I wont compete on a low- bid method. I have put too much time and money into learning and equipment to sell myself short.

I am not going anywhere. Bring it on.

 

[mark galoob]

so...i call it like i see it. if anybody got offended by my calling you out, maybe you should re think the way you "help" newbies.

ps calling me names is bullying in my book. do you think that is productive, or even mature in anybody's book.

mark galoob

 

[CentralSigns]

I've offered very good info many times in this forum. Some times I must come across a bully to you Mark, but that is far from true. There has been a couple of times in the last couple weeks that I have been caught in posts that were very controversial. One being wraps for 2 per sq foot, as the post progressed I was caught up further in it and only gave my opinion on it based on the direction it had progressed. I just hate to see businesses charge nothing for our products as I feel it will damage our industry for a long time. I don't feel that asking or explaining maybe sometimes what people don't want to hear is all wrong. Seriously Mark, how could I be scared she will compete with me. How was I not being helpful to our new person. I only, brought facts out of, what she had said. I commented on these facts based my ideas as a next progression I seen for her complete. I never told her that she should quit, only be careful. Maybe you should read my last post again. I thought this was helpful info. I called you a jerk cause I call them as I see them, and you had called me a bully. Maybe you should rethink your behavior in this post.

 

[bob]

...

ps calling me names is bullying in my book...

Calling you a name is merely someone making a noise with their mouth, or their keyboard. If you are whatever it is you're called then you have no right to complain. If you're not, then it's just meaningless noise.

Bullying is someone twisting your nose into the shape of a molybolt until you give up your lunch money.

Big difference.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

. I am going to apprentice at a sign shop in NY this July.

Go apprentice for a few weeks.
You will find out you have no clue. You will find out that printing big sheets is not sign making. Then go back and continue to develop your photography skills.
Focus is what you need to do. Not expand yoru services. All that will do is spread yourself thin and make you barely adequate in both endeavors.

No offense Melissa but a few weeks....or a month......or even 6 months does not constitute "Apprenticing". That is only "Visiting". A few years living the biz......eating and drinking up all you can about the biz......that begins to constitute a start at apprenticing!

I do not have any pending jobs and need quick answers.

Then whats the rush and all-fired-up impatience about? There are generally no real quick answers. If you have not found the answers in your searches then you are not being diligent and patient enough. Without patience in this biz, any education will be lost and by the same token, diligence and perseverence will serve you well. If you wish to reach a point of successfully offering signage along with your photography then prepare for a long and arduous journey. Contrary to what you perceive or have been told, its not an easy jaunt down to the corner and back. There are countless pitfalls you WILL encounter, especially in this industry, not to mention trying to marry a totally different biz into a photography business. I'm not saying that you can't do it...I just don't think you are aware of the journey you are attempting to embark upon. With that said.......
Welcome aboard and have a nice ride.....Fred will be your Captain. There is a Premium Section for those that are serious and wish for more comfort during their journey. Once you feel that you have reached your destination, you may disembark through any exit. Of course you will have learned to fly as well as work without a net or backboard. Have a wonderful trip...good luck and thank you for traveling with Sign101.
:Welcome:

 

[Dave Drane]

how many people here would ever believe that to be allowed to have the priveledge of becoming a master tradesman would require 5 years of learning to get a piece of paper called an indenture to hang on your wall?. And 5 years become 10 years and 10 years become 30 years etc. and one is still learning. At the start I actually had the priveledge of carrying trestles through snake infested swamps on the sides of highways and balancing warily on shaky planks to actually paint the backs of signs?? Along with cleaning the bosses toilets and sweeping floors while also being allowed to talk to real "masters" was what a first year apprentice got to do.
One day a week at college along with lots of overtime to make up for below standard wages was what the fight was about to be allowed to carry the name "TRADESMAN".
Being shown how to lay out and balance copy all hand drawn and then actually paint the friggen background and lettering was what it was all about.
I know we now live in the computer age, but it is of no use to anybody to just be able to "spit stuff out" and then go searching for somebody to put the stuff up. The business is not really about "outsourcing" everything you can't handle because it is just to difficult for a girl to get her hands all dirty and find a dick to do the dirty work, especially if your artwork aint up to standard. This is where a real "tradesman who does the lot is going to reap rewards that the photographer, butcher, window tinter, race car driver, hobbyist, mom etc. is going to be jealous of because they are just such good "graphic Artists" who are so good with software and a brain for finding nice fonts and clip art.
I know I am going to cop crap for saying this but I am too old and cranky now to really care. I have done the hard yards and reaping the rewards, as my father told me I would when I pursued the career in his foot steps.
Life is great now doing what I want to do and playing golf each Wednesday afternoon, chatting with nice people, riding my Harley if I want to, and telling cheapskates to piss off and find a vinyl jockey if that is what they are prepared to pay.
BTW, I bought my first computer, a gerber 4A in 1985, (the rep at the time said that signwriters were dickheads, because the bought expensive machinery to cut prices) and I will never own a printer, because I can make much more designing the job I discuss with my customer and "outsourcing" it to the guys who want to be able to buy better, more expensive equipment so that they can sell it cheaper than before.!! hahahaha

 

[andy]

here we go again...bash the newbie. mellisa, the real reason they bash you is they are afraid you or someone like you will compete with them...

i think you should spend some $$$ and hire an experienced tutor to help you get into this business. it will be a good investment and prob save you money in the long run. this site is good and there is lots of info here. there is also a lot of butthead attitude here. i see bullying for what it is and get what i want or need here anyway despite it.

mark galoob:Welcome:

Bullying should not be confused with the inconvenience that is the truth. Central raised many good points which I should imagine were offered to prevent someone wasting a lot of time and money on a business venture which has more holes in it than a sieve.

It's nice to be nice but the truth is usually kinder.

 

[weaselboogie]

3. I have seen pictures where people seem to be in the picture twice, one is a side view looking up to the heavens, and the other is a regular shot. How do I do that?

Pre-digital, I think it was called double or multiple exposure.... now it's called photoshop

A friend of mine is a professional photographer, who did several weddings at some point many years ago. He had a request for a picture of the alter with the bride and groom side by side with a double exposure of Jesus looking down at them from the top corner of the picture. Not wanting to go tacky, he simply told them "If Jesus wasn't in the church that day, he's not ending up in the picture "

 

[Gordy Saunders]

I hate to say it, but what this industry really needs to keep a high level of integrity is the creation of some kind of certification board. Maybe something like they use for welders or some other skilled labor certification element.

It could start right here. We could all start a real conversation and list the actual needed qualifications and experience that should be required to obtain a license to be in the sign business.

If that were done we wouldn't have all these upstarts lowballing the prices and doing inferior work just to get there foot in the door.

 

[signmeup]

You'll have to define what a signmaker does first. Unless ya'll are going to learn to carve by hand and gild stuff and hand letter.... you know, like any well rounded sign guy can do. That'll come in handy if you only do silk screened coro political signs, but hey....we need standards.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I hate to say it, but what this industry really needs to keep a high level of integrity is the creation of some kind of certification board. Maybe something like they use for welders or some other skilled labor certification element.

It could start right here. We could all start a real conversation and list the actual needed qualifications and experience that should be required to obtain a license to be in the sign business.

If that were done we wouldn't have all these upstarts lowballing the prices and doing inferior work just to get there foot in the door.

Good luck with that. Consider Signs 101 as a microcosm of the industry ...

• Wrappers cannot agree on whether certification for their specialty has any value or who should do the certifying.
• Less than half of our 14,294 members have ever posted.
• Less than 2.5% of our members support Signs 101 financially.
• No known number, but a very small percentage of our members ever make a helpful post.
• Self government for Signs 101 (which was a path to becoming an organized association) was a failure.
• In the seven months since the Product Reviews section was added, there have been 67 reviews posted ... but about 90% of those were posted by Admins. So the daily questions in the forums about "which fill in the blank should I buy" continue unabated.
• In the six months since the Network Registry was commenced, 102 members (.7%) have added their names.

Historically, less than 20% of the industry ever subscribes to a trade journal and less than 10% ever attends a trade show. I would love to see a figure on the number of sign people who actually worked as an employee for an established sign company to learn the craft as opposed to how many just jumped in and taught themselves. My guess is that it would be less than 10%.

So, while I agree with you that some sort of organization, standard setting and certification would be a good thing, I have no expectation of ever seeing it in my lifetime.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

unfortunately what i think we will see is various cities get tired of the poor quality work by unskilled people masquerading as qualified professionals and they will make it difficult to obtain a business license (which has already happened in some cities where you must prove X amount of years in the trade) or they will make it damn near impossible for the average shop to install their own products (which has already happened in other cities, through requiring a contractors license if you are going to install which means you need to familiarize yourself with a whole bunch of information that doesnt have a thing to do with our trade or requiring proof of insurance at a certain dollar amount determined by that city which i have seen as high as $2.5M) i do not have a problem with any of these conditions imposed by the various cities for companies that are doing structural work, electrical work, etc but i have yet to see any of these cities make that distinction.

i do not ever see our industry regulating ourselves, unfortunately. i do see cities getting flat out tired of visual pollution, fly by night questionable installations (if not down right incompetent installations) and making it extremely difficult for the small shop to pull permits, obtain a business license, etc..which in my opinion will only make the problem worse by more people doing night time / weekend installations.

ideally what i would like to see is a universal sign code for all cities and states which could be ammended to fit any special needs of that particular municipality. i would also like to see distinction in that universal sign code between shops that produce what i refer to as consumbable signs (banners, corrugated, etc) and permanent signs (monuments, structural, illuminated, etc).

i have had almost every city that has contacted me to help write or review their sign code ask me why this does not already exist? why our industry has no prepared something of this nature...but there is no governing body. i remember when i worked for my family's shop there was a union and that is the closest i have ever seen to any organization...imagine that a retirement system, group health insurance, fair wages for skilled employees. It was far from perfect and I will be the first person to say it, but it was a whole lot better than things are today.

i regularly receive calls from sign shops trying to understand their local sign codes usually because they have a project that does not fit into any specific definition in their code. when we find a way to solve their issue i always encourage them to get involved with thier local city, to volunteer to help with the sign code to make suggestions etc...i know of a handful of shops who have actually got involved other than short term involvment to solve their issue.

 

[CentralSigns]

Good posts Dan. We do all our own installs what ever way the customer wants, monument, illuminated or structural. On your note, my shop had to take out a insurance policy at 2M liability to be able to do anything for the town I live in. This policy is to cover any sign failure as long as I follow common installation practices from within the industry. The insurance company thought this was too low and suggested I almost double it. Not only do I have to have a policy, my insurance company says I must carry it as long as the liability exists. Meaning I must carry the insurance policy to the life of the sign I installed. This includes signs that are reinstalled in existing locations, meaning all old locations must also be inspected for any defects that could cause sign failure. This has made me wounder if it is worthwhile to do installs as insurance is not cheap. In another community close to me, the sign shop only has pickup of signs, for self install only.

 

[iSign]

3. You don't. Its hideous.
4. Stop photographing the devil.
5. Both. Yes. Ebay is the heaven those people in the awful photos look up to....

you slay me Melissa :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: awesome reply!



Melissa has every bit of chance to succeed in this business as any one of the rest of us, AND she has more chance of benefiting from this forum then 90% of the people who register, both because of her thick skinned sense of humor, & her ability or willingness to seek answers to the right questions instead of proceeding without seeking (notice I said "seek the answers", not just ask... which is what I perceive to be the case). To all the cranky pissed off, or disinterested primadonna dicks, er... sign men...courtesy isn't a prerequisite to a good layout, but it can be damn helpful in business... and it don't hurt in community relations either...

phuq 5 to 10 years of apprentice work in the swamps... life before the internet was different, information comes easier today... big deal.. get over yer damn selves.. hey, I hate lowballers and hacks as much as the next guy, but dishing out vile scum at anyone who considers finding an easier path to gaining financial reward in a similar aspect of the sign trade, without mucking around the same arduous path you found... comes off as pure envy...

signwriters, sign men, tradesman... whatever... I was an architectural draftsman & happened to get hired by an architectural sign company while on an extended vacation...

...I didn't know s#!t about signs, but mathematically laying out building directories & fire escape maps quickly captured my interest as a variation on what my college education had prepared me for, & it clearly utilized my natural talents as well...

...in no time I was a self taught computer graphics professional, edging out seasoned veterans in the corporate headquarters of North America's largest architectural sign company, to not only do the work faster & better then the status quo, but creating innovative new methods to further improve the bottom line.. and sometimes this graphic work resulted in cast bronze, or inlaid marble opulence, (subbed out to some other dick... not because some man or woman wouldn't or couldn't do it... because specialization often leads to superior quality )

..so, where was I? ...oh yeah, me making a damn good living without mucking through any swamps (or ever dipping a brush)... & when I tired of New York City, I choose a different path & own a small company in Maui & in fact have chosen to learn a little carving, gilding or painting...

...but there are important aspects of the sign trade that Melissa or anyone else has every right to pursue and NO need for the same damn skills, paths, or objectives as the rest of us... there will always be hacks, and for all we know, she might become one... but it won't be because we weren't big enough assholes when she first showed up (too late for that )

...and if not her, the million people who become hacks in every walk of life will do so even if we behave like civil adults around here!

 

[signmeup]

Good post isign.

My background is Windsor chairmaker/cabinet maker and aircraft designer. I'm also a pretty good photographer, welder, machinist and mechanic and have training as a mechanical draftsman. I bring techniques and methods to the table that few sign people have because of my training. My point? Mellisa will bring a eye for proportion and balance as well as a keen understanding of lighting to the table based on her training and skill set. She may wind up being a better designer/craftsman that any of you nay sayers will ever be.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Don't get your shorts all in twist there Doug. Let me ask you..."How is her intro any different than Joe Blow walking into your shop and introducing himself the very same way...wanting fast answers"?
You and I both know that you would be saying "Whoa Charger..slow down". You also know that some of the harshest here are also the most helpful and now that it has been pointed out to her that its not so damn simple, I'm sure she will be welcomed and receive helpful information if she is determined to dive in to the biz. I suspect she will and I doubt she will be a hack. Don't be so quick to chastise your brothers.

 

[iSign]

So scratch my vendor question, scratch my paint question even though.. in my searching I see a ton of different answers that contradict one another. But the hardware question I have searched and I can not FIND IT.

Melissa, check here: http://panelclip.com/

Rex, I see where she wrote she is NOT in a hurry, has NOT taken any jobs on yet, IS searching the forums IS going to spend some time in a shop (dare not use the A word though) and IS trying to learn BEFORE selling..

I did not see where she says she IS in a hurry for all the answers, so maybe my point of view is based on missing some "hurry and help me" plea that I overlooked.