CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
+1, but you have to admit it still looks cool lining up with the cuts and all.
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What would cause this
- Thread starter CanuckSigns
- Start date
+1, but you have to admit it still looks cool lining up with the cuts and all.
gabagoo
New Member
It's cast vinyl...KPMF does not make calandered translucents. I have never seen even calandered vinyl do this in such a short period of time.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
I seem to have missed this thread, sorry for dragging it up again. Just to clarify, the vinyl is most defenetly cast 2 mil translucent vinyl, as Barry said, KPMF does not make a calandered translucent vinyl.
As for stretching, The vinyl was applied with pre-mask and rapid tac, the same way we have done with other vinyls in the past without issue. Unless the vinyl is hyper sensitive to the slightest stretch from squeegeeing out the rapid tac, I cant see how this could be the issue.
I will send these pictures off the KPMF directly and see what they have to say, anyone wanna guess?
As for stretching, The vinyl was applied with pre-mask and rapid tac, the same way we have done with other vinyls in the past without issue. Unless the vinyl is hyper sensitive to the slightest stretch from squeegeeing out the rapid tac, I cant see how this could be the issue.
I will send these pictures off the KPMF directly and see what they have to say, anyone wanna guess?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Quick question............
Is your cutter a friction feed or a sprocket fed and what degree blade were you using ??
Tech has quite a few points there, but I don't think they apply here.
This usually happens when your blade cuts into the corner, raises up to make the 90° turn, sets back down and the plunge makes a minute cut, ever so slightly causing premature cracking or breaking up and you get what you see in your picture. However, this stuff you have shown here is acting just like calendared vinyl in too much sun, after being stretched beyond it's powers to hold. I would stop using that brand altogether from here on in, unless they stand behind you product and labor.
If you say it's 2mil translucent, I'll believe you, but then why did you use it on the post and panel set up ?? Or...... is that not translucent ?? If not, then I'd say you're being screwed.
Is your cutter a friction feed or a sprocket fed and what degree blade were you using ??
Tech has quite a few points there, but I don't think they apply here.
This usually happens when your blade cuts into the corner, raises up to make the 90° turn, sets back down and the plunge makes a minute cut, ever so slightly causing premature cracking or breaking up and you get what you see in your picture. However, this stuff you have shown here is acting just like calendared vinyl in too much sun, after being stretched beyond it's powers to hold. I would stop using that brand altogether from here on in, unless they stand behind you product and labor.
If you say it's 2mil translucent, I'll believe you, but then why did you use it on the post and panel set up ?? Or...... is that not translucent ?? If not, then I'd say you're being screwed.
anotherdog
New Member
I have had calendered vinyl in a similar situation, 7 years so far full sun no failing. even the plexi is starting to yellow but the vinyl is good.
this problem has to be a bad batch. it's clearly shrinking. I have also seen this happen at the top of a lightbox because of too much heat from the light being mounted too close. Good luck getting the warranty to apply though, too long and too many variables.
Will you give the customer any discount on a reprint?
Techman
New Member
Lots of speculation.
A minute micro tear in a corner cause a friggin CAST vinyl layer to shrink at least 1/4 of an inch. In all the years I did vinyl I never once saw a minute tear cause a crack in a vinyl panel. Especially if using real cast..
But if we analyze is from the pics.. The product shrank a large amount. It cracked in the corners of the cuts. The shrinkage alone is enough to point right at the cause.
That shrinkage has nothing to do with some minute little tear in some corner. Any good cast product would not shrink back as much as what is shown in these pics. That crap shrank big time. Look at how far it cracked and shrank,,.. Either the supplier sold him calendared, or they sold him a product that is labeled cast just like another company we know but is actually calendared... or they make junk product. Too me,, it's that simple.
I've seen that product failure so many times. Lamers would install regular calendered vinyl on a backlit and within months it would be cracking or curling like a tater chip. How many of us came behind a lamer to redo a job where he used CHEAP calendared.
In fact I posted several times about this same thing. On the other hand, cast will stay up for a very long time.. In fact, I just changed out a restaurant backlit where the vinyl was up over 2 decades. Yes it was badly faded and gator skinned. But it did not shrink...
A minute micro tear in a corner cause a friggin CAST vinyl layer to shrink at least 1/4 of an inch. In all the years I did vinyl I never once saw a minute tear cause a crack in a vinyl panel. Especially if using real cast..
But if we analyze is from the pics.. The product shrank a large amount. It cracked in the corners of the cuts. The shrinkage alone is enough to point right at the cause.
That shrinkage has nothing to do with some minute little tear in some corner. Any good cast product would not shrink back as much as what is shown in these pics. That crap shrank big time. Look at how far it cracked and shrank,,.. Either the supplier sold him calendared, or they sold him a product that is labeled cast just like another company we know but is actually calendared... or they make junk product. Too me,, it's that simple.
I've seen that product failure so many times. Lamers would install regular calendered vinyl on a backlit and within months it would be cracking or curling like a tater chip. How many of us came behind a lamer to redo a job where he used CHEAP calendared.
In fact I posted several times about this same thing. On the other hand, cast will stay up for a very long time.. In fact, I just changed out a restaurant backlit where the vinyl was up over 2 decades. Yes it was badly faded and gator skinned. But it did not shrink...
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Thanks for the info guys, I've emailed the manufacturer to see what they say.
Gino - these were cut using our roland versacamm printer/cutter, I think in the future, I'm going to round any sharp corners in my design program before I send to cut.
Anotherdog - I'm not sure if this is a bad batch or cast vinyl, or a calendered product being sold as a cast vinyl, it feels like cast, but I can't be 100% certain. We will strip one of the signs and redo at our expense, the other we have not decided, they have never contacted us since we installed this job, I will play that one by ear I think.
Techman - I agree with you, if this was a cast product, I should be able to take a knife and slice the crap out of it and it still wouldn't shrink back as bad as this!
Time will tell what the manufacturer says about this.
Gino - these were cut using our roland versacamm printer/cutter, I think in the future, I'm going to round any sharp corners in my design program before I send to cut.
Anotherdog - I'm not sure if this is a bad batch or cast vinyl, or a calendered product being sold as a cast vinyl, it feels like cast, but I can't be 100% certain. We will strip one of the signs and redo at our expense, the other we have not decided, they have never contacted us since we installed this job, I will play that one by ear I think.
Techman - I agree with you, if this was a cast product, I should be able to take a knife and slice the crap out of it and it still wouldn't shrink back as bad as this!
Time will tell what the manufacturer says about this.
ICeMAnAbk
New Member
Ah, I've had a similiar issue, not nearly as bad. Those look like 1/4" wide. jez!
Issue I had was, applied in cold season, wet app, stuck up, hot season came, few seasons later, the spot which had rapic tac had cracked due to the warm summer heat then cold winter, then hot summer again.
Since then, I just do everything dry. Unless I'm trying to get something on a difficult outline or shadow, Id rather do it dry. Have no issues then.
Sucks it happend man. I hope you find out exactly why.
Issue I had was, applied in cold season, wet app, stuck up, hot season came, few seasons later, the spot which had rapic tac had cracked due to the warm summer heat then cold winter, then hot summer again.
Since then, I just do everything dry. Unless I'm trying to get something on a difficult outline or shadow, Id rather do it dry. Have no issues then.
Sucks it happend man. I hope you find out exactly why.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Thanks, these were installed in the summer if I remember correctly. and the cracks are closer to 1/2" wide in some places!
Just to keep everyone updated, the supplier has sent someone down to take a small sample from the sign for testing, I guess they will decide what to do after that.
Just to keep everyone updated, the supplier has sent someone down to take a small sample from the sign for testing, I guess they will decide what to do after that.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Just an update on this, the Manufacturer has gotten back to me and as expected, they have every excuse in the book as to why this is not their fault, they blame the lexan panel for shrinking/expanding too much and causing the vinyl to crack, which i think is complete bullscat as we have done many other similar installs with other colours of vinyl from multiple suppliers and never had a problem.
On the plus side our supplier who sold us the film is giving us a full credit for the amount we paid back in 2009, which is more than I expected them to do.
It's just makes me angry that the manufacturer sells a product that is meant to be a 7 year product, and when it completly fails in 3 years, they will take absolutely no responsibility for it. As I result, i've shifted all my 2 mil vinyl away from KPMF to Oracal.
On the plus side our supplier who sold us the film is giving us a full credit for the amount we paid back in 2009, which is more than I expected them to do.
It's just makes me angry that the manufacturer sells a product that is meant to be a 7 year product, and when it completly fails in 3 years, they will take absolutely no responsibility for it. As I result, i've shifted all my 2 mil vinyl away from KPMF to Oracal.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
It appears I need to post a retraction, apparently the vinyl I received was not made by KPMF, but by some company I've never heard of "writma" or "ritma" or something. Aparently the supplier I bought this from uses multiple suppliers for their vinyl, but only the KPMF is branded as such.
Through this whole ordeal I was never told that this was not a KPMF film, even after sending an email directly to KPMF and my supplier.
My apologies to KPMF, it seems there was a breakdown in communication along the line.
Through this whole ordeal I was never told that this was not a KPMF film, even after sending an email directly to KPMF and my supplier.
My apologies to KPMF, it seems there was a breakdown in communication along the line.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Yes that's the one. I think they knew what they were selling, but decided that I didn't need to know, from what I can gather, Ritrama doesn't have the greatest reputation in the industry.
i wonder if when you were taking the transfer tape off, some of the corners of the lettering lifted cause you used application fluid. I've had that happen. I like to look at everything after pulling off the mask to make sure all the vinly is conformed to the substrate.
a small little lift and debrie can get in there
a small little lift and debrie can get in there
gabagoo
New Member
No one said it was not cast and from what Scott paid per yard it had better been cast. I was unaware that Ritrama actually made 2ml cast product.
gabagoo
New Member
well I guess they were wrong...in any case I never like Ritrama vinyl way back in the day...have not seen it in years and didn't know they were still around.
But....
KMPF don't recognise your method of panel fabrication as being acceptable because from a UK perspective it's not.
Back lit sign panels like yours should be produced from quality cast Opal acrylic. The sizes you are working with dictate a minimum of 5mm acrylic thickness. All panels should be cut undersize and fitted with hanging bars to facilitate a "float" fit inside the cabinet.
KPMF are a UK company so it's perhaps not unreasonable for them to judge your project using UK standards.
Used on a suitably thick piece of cast acrylic both KMPF & Ritrama translucent films work just fine.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Like I said earlier, it turns out it wasn't KPMF film.
However, acrylic won't last 1 year in Canada, a few days of -35 degree temperatures and it will shatter. I can see this not being an issue in the UK, where the temperature is pretty moderate all year round. If a product can't stand up to North American fabrication methods, perhaps it shouldn't be sold in North America