Will the real DeSoto please stand up.....

[SignManiac]

I can't offer a solution to the problem, that being inferior work whether it's design or installation, but the underlying problem is human nature and that will never change as long as we live in a society that worships the almighty dollar.

Lowballers will never go away as long as "we the people" insists on the cheapest price, brought about in part by the Walmart mentality or just plain greed or the need to maximize profits.

I know little about this Sergio fellow but if he's come up with the next best thing that slices bread and can "profit" from it, then he's okay in my book.

I'm all about learning and teaching the "craft of sign making" but personally I'm more about the "art of making money". I've worked too hard all these years striving to become descent at what I do and I sure as hell am not a charity so where do you draw the line when it comes to the right to make money?

The only necessary skill needed in this business to become good is pride... All the other information we need is already available in books, classes, forums like this. Pride is what makes us want to become better at what we do in life. Whether it's your profession or how you take care of your home, your family or your tools.

You either care to become better or you're just too damn lazy to care at all. Just my own personal opinion and ramblings based on a few years in the biz..

 

[BigfishDM]

Maybe the 3M vinyl distributors should be more stringent on who is actually allowed to buy the product. For instance a new account calls me and wants to buy a roll of 3M180C and I tell him we cannot sell this roll to you until you have completed "X" wrap pricing strategies or something like that. Whats happening is that you can get these materials just about anywhere and if you really want to change the industry you would have to start with the actual distributors you guys buy your products from. Just an idea.

Josh

 

[Sergio DeSoto]

I have read this entire thread and am trying to take it all in. I think that once the sign industry leaders ( not manufactures or distributers ) can some how assimilate a united front things can and will get better in regards to several of the topics listed above.

My passion is wrapping therefore I tend to be somewhat tunnel visioned and some times forget about the rest of the industry but none the less given what I have learned, seen and been privy to. I do know this for a fact.

No matter how much in favor of the shops things seem the main objective is to grow the big fish bigger. I never really understood this until I sat on the other side of the purchase order. Now it is very clear to me.

As Gino said ( i think ) if people put their heads together and created a united front the smaller shops would be in the power position..

I also must note that this Forum often ends up an entertainment piece more so than an effective means for people to discuss and act on serious issues concerning our industry. We are so fragmented as a whole so worried about competition that we seem to forget that this chaos is what keeps us easy to manage from a distribution and manufacturing stand point.

This thread has initiated some of the most intelligent conversation I have seen in a long time regarding issues that matter. I hope it is only the beginning, I also think that this could be the proving ground for change if so utilized that way. Fred would be proud!

I do not have all the answers by any means, what I do have is a look into things that most shop owners would never ever be able to see and the way things work behind distribution and manufacturing.

And make no mistake about it, my heart never left the shop and I will never ever stop the pursuit of knowledge and betterment for my craft and am willing to put myself out there because of it.

Lets not lets this certification, design training and any other matter that is serious to our trade go by without the due diligence of critical thinking. Action will soon follow..

another 12 hour day has me exhausted and my 5 kids are calling for daddy so I am signing out!

sergio

 

[iSign]

Good post.

With all due respect, I have to say that, as much as myself & several of us here may act like baboons at times...

...we actually have intelligent conversations quite regularly, between the entertainment, so you can look forward to that if you spend more time here.

And Fred already is proud... (between some of the less entertaining baboon antics)

 

[cartoad]

Welcome Sergio,
Good to see you here and lookng forward to your comments on this and other issues. Being on both sides should give you a very unique view of the industry.

This has been an very interesting discussion to say the least. A certification should be in levels that includes all the different parts of the industry. Kinda like how the auto repair organization ASA does it, different sections to pass, and when you pass all of the tests you are a master technician. Now how to put that together for the sign industry, that is the $50,000 question.

 

[cdiesel]

Welcome Sergio! We should sit down and have lunch!

Thank you for coming forward and trying to clear the air a little. There are a million ideas and rumors floating around out there (especially given what's happened in the past couple of weeks).

I've been very vocal about my feelings in general about certification and what you personally have done for/to the industry. While I appreciate what you did with Lowen, I disagree with a few aspects of the program. I think a certification program linked to a print provider/purchaser of vinyl/retailer is not a good idea. The 3M Certification is a fine, and I'm all for it, as long as there is a definite distinction between individual Certified Installers and UASG certified companies.

I see a major flaw in the current certification programs (referring only to the UASG and PDAA, I don't recognize any other program as legitimate) in that one person goes and shows their ability to install vinyl and the company is certified. Most companies employ more than one installer, and not all are necessarily capable. We've all seen the results of a certified shop hiring $9/hr help and not training them or verifying their work properly.

At the UASG and PDAA meetings this week, I proposed a new level of certification within each organization where any willing company could send all of their installers to be tested, and be designated as a 100% certified company. I don't know if anything will come of that or not, but something needs to be done to keep everyone happy.

 

[cdiesel]

Gino: I'm curious as to whether or not the two installers you refer to above were actually certified or not. I see constantly people use "certified" synonamously with attending a training class. I've met quite a few people who were "Oracal Certified". Oracal doesn't actually offer their own certification program, rather, they rely on the PDAA to certify installers.

Either way, they technically couldn't have been certified, as the old 3M Certification is a company based certification and does not go with the employee when they leave a company. Likewise, the company must retain at least one w-2 employee who has passed the certification test to remain certified. This is all currently changing, however.

 

[kstompaint]

I'm all for everybody furthering their knowledge regarding the various aspects of the craft that we all practice. I'm not, however going to support anything being mandated by anybody. The madates that exist already are overbearing, regardless of the good intent that they may have been initiated by. Building, vehicle and tax codes are among the many good intentions that have been firmly planted in the pavement to "hell."

Gino, you said "if someone doesn’t want to attend these classes or become certified in a particular area, then they should not be allowed to practice in our industry." Should this be mandated by government? If so, that is yet another idea that may have a good intention but will strangle the industry, especially the "little guy." If that's not what you meant, please explain.

DanStriker: "i feel that the only way to get it under control at this point is for municipalities to require a proof of a certain amount of time in the trade for you to be eligible for a business license..." More government involvement.

The solution to this problem (and most others) is LESS government involvement. Dan, you're worried about cheap equipment breaking down a "barrier to entry" into our industry. Why can't we just allow our work to speak for itself?

Darwinism exists in business for a reason. Those who offer a superior product at a reasonable price will survive. Those who don't will go back to the grill at BK, or what ever. Let the market take care of it and keep the government (local or otherwise) out of it.

If it were in everybody's best interest to require certification to purchase material, then that would be the case... but it's not. Lowen has a vested interest in making sure their installers do the job right. That's the market taking care of itself. As far as I'm concerned, the material manufacturers should be ready and willing to offer us install instruction for free, or close to it. It would benefit them as much or more than us, and I'd be willing to commit to buying ONLY from the manufacturer that was willing to train me and my guys. That seems to me like it would be mutually beneficial, and it keeps the inept, inefficient and corrupt government bureaucrats out of the mix (as it should be).

 

[iSign]

If it were in everybody's best interest to require certification to purchase material, then that would be the case... but it's not. Lowen has a vested interest in making sure their installers do the job right. That's the market taking care of itself. As far as I'm concerned, the material manufacturers should be ready and willing to offer us install instruction for free, or close to it. It would benefit them as much or more than us, and I'd be willing to commit to buying ONLY from the manufacturer that was willing to train me and my guys. That seems to me like it would be mutually beneficial, and it keeps the inept, inefficient and corrupt government bureaucrats out of the mix (as it should be).

wow... I am on a polar extreme in my opinions...

First, how can you believe "if it were in everybody's best interest to require certification to purchase material, then that would be the case"???

That sounds like saying that our civilization & our industrial infrastructure has achieved perfection, & no further improvements are possible in either, & should not be sought...

...Nobody's going to have a good idea that doesn't yet exist & that needs optimistic supporters & visionary's to help if develop & mature? ...if an idea had merit, it would have already become established? ...that's so depressing of a viewpoint, I don't believe it could really be what you mean... but it sounds just about like that to me, so far....

And free training? ...well I already posted about how damaging I believe that idea is...

 

[ddarlak]

certification is a total joke.

reputation and a portfolio are all you need. just because you pay some jackass to give you a certificate, doesn't mean your going to produce a good wrapped vehicle.

sure there are enough people/corporations that will look for the certification, just enough to keep the certifiers in business, but in general it will never take off. it's just to loose of an industry.

as more people are offering wraps, the price of them will come down. the cream will rise to the top, certificate or not.....

welcome to 101 from niagara falls.....

 

[Mason]

certification is a total joke.

reputation and a portfolio are all you need. just because you pay some jackass to give you a certificate, doesn't mean your going to produce a good wrapped vehicle.

sure there are enough people/corporations that will look for the certification, just enough to keep the certifiers in business, but in general it will never take off. it's just to loose of an industry.

as more people are offering wraps, the price of them will come down. the cream will rise to the top, certificate or not.....

welcome to 101 from niagara falls.....

Yep another stunning example of meaningful dialogue.

 

[johnnysigns]

Certification programs have been keeping installers in business for years. That's not speculation, it's a fact.

 

[Kevin-shopVOX]

Welcome from Maine.

After reading this entire thread and giving it much thought I have to say I can't see how the certifications will change the industry. The distributors/manufacturers simply won't allow that to happen. Why? They can't afford it. If they restructured their distribution to shops that were only certified they would lose a ton of business. The dollar is mightier than the quality of the wrap or sign on the street. I for one think they will always sell to whomever has a credit card.

A feasible idea though is to offer discounts. Give certified organizations buying power.A vendor should step in and say "hey we want your business". Give us the same benefit as if we were a franchise where they have that benefit. If I were a sign supply pro I'd veer my selling traits to something similar. What are the benefits of being certified by us? Well you get this and this and this plus this. Now I want to get certified, I can make more money and I can promote my certification as a selling point. I'll get certified if it makes me more money simply on the materials I buy.

I'm smart enough to know that my portfolio, skills, past experience & dedication to customer service paired with fair pricing will beat out my competition 7 out of 10 times if they are subpar in any of those categories. I want an incentive to be certified that will show me significant savings over the years putting more on the bottom line.

Oh..looking for design certifications? Adobe has one...or how about promoting the degrees that we have or your staff has. I worked hard for my 4 year degree and it almost makes me look credible. I'll wave it around if it helps make the sale.

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

Good post.

With all due respect, I have to say that, as much as myself & several of us here may act like baboons at times...

...we actually have intelligent conversations quite regularly, between the entertainment, so you can look forward to that if you spend more time here.

And Fred already is proud... (between some of the less entertaining baboon antics)

Good post Mr. president. I think you and I fall into the "baboon" group at times when our pride get's the better of our reason.

 

[CES020]

Is it really about making the craft better for most of the people in line to setup a certification program, or is it really about trying to shut out the little guy that's eating their lunch by taking customers away? It seems a technique used in many industries and alive and kicking in the sign industry.

I've seen a number of poor wraps, signs, etc., all from sign companies in business for over 20 years. I've also seen some killer work done by people who are artists and just damn good and seeing things others don't.

I've seen expensive signs falling apart and I've seen cheap signs falling apart.

Seems everyone always wants to shut down the little guy once they become big enough to have the overhead of a large shop, equipment, multiple employees, taxes, etc.

I'd be curious to know how many are really in line for real reform and how many are in line to get a certification process installed into the industry to try and stop their competition from taking their work because their competition are doing better jobs.

Just curious.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

CE i work with independent one man shops and giant sign companies. i could care less as long as quality work is going out the door. our industry has been over run by people with no experience producing sub standard work that has reached a level that the general public does not even see what we do as a trade anymore...to me and to the history of our craft it is an embarassment.

i am not a fan of big government but in this situation i see no other way to reform our industry. do i think it will happen...honestly i do not.

i think we will see more jokers entering the 'trade' with less than entry level plotters, printers, cnc routers and every other once high tech piece of equipment that time and technology are only going to make cheaper reducing that barrier to entry by people who have little to no industry knowledge (let alone any business knowledge in and of itself), further perpetuating the plague of poorly produced badly designed signs.

i have been hired as a consultant to new shops who have been producing signs with contact paper from walmart...seriously..and had no idea that they were doing something wrong. so what happens is that the client that ordered the sign from them because it was cheaper not knowing there was a very good reason for that sign being cheaper than the shop where the operator had years of experience and can look at the end use of the sign and pick an appropriate material we end up with another consumer of signs that thinks that our industry is full of hacks...then when they come to buy a sign from someone that is a trained professional they think they are gouging them because they are charging for design that generates results, they are charging for using materials that will guarantee that the sign not only lasts as long as it should but that it looks good for that duration of time.

the perception of our industry being an industry that anyone can enter and be sucessful at by simply purchasing a $300 piece of equipment is taking a toll. our industry is saturated with shops that have no business being in business. i could list a hundred reasons why they have no business being in business but i'd be beating a dead horse.

i am lucky enough to pick and choose the projects that i produce. i am fortunate to not have to deal with the day to day shopper anymore but i did so for over 20yrs and have watched the decline of our trade and it is sad to say the least.

 

[CES020]

That's interesting Dan, I'd argue that there are 1000's of industries out there that feel the same thing about their industry. It's called technology and progress and I haven't seen anyone stop it yet. I'm just amazed at how many people think the sign industry is unique to these issues and the items discussed only apply to signs.

It's YOUR job to do a better job with customers letting them know their options and how the other people are using contact paper from wal-mart. If you are competing and losing to them, then that's the fault of your marketing and sales. Take responsibility for it and change it. Don't want to compete against that, then figure out how to get the message to your potential customers.

But taking someone's rights or abilities away because you don't think they are qualified? Wow....that's a huge stretch there. And as I said, guess who'll still be around? The big guys. The little guys won't be able to afford it (by design), and then you can get back to charging all you want and raping your customers if you wish because you have no competition.

I can't even believe I'm reading comments where people suggest you can freely take someone's right away to do business because YOU think they do crap work. It's a free market and that's how free markets work. Don't like it? Tough luck.

I'm just shocked that any artist on this forum would believe it's okay to limit someone's ability to create because some board or council doesn't approve of their ability to create something that is acceptable by some industry sponsored group.

Wow.....

 

[Techman]

Should this be mandated by government? I

Well, not mandated but it could be legislated.. For example. Look at the Real Estate and the Money Manager trades.

They became self governing with support from legislators. They regulate themselves and removed the untrained entry level low ballers from their midst. They have a path to management and owner levels. They have continuing education and their system works for them. Do they make money? The good ones do.

There are calls for regulation in every single service trade out there. Some see the light and are slowly moving towards self regulation. Some are still squabbling between themselves over the definition of an untrained noob and are under attack by self serving legislators.

Personally. Putting up obstacles for a man to earn a living is against all things normal. However, putting up a few guidelines to make his earning a living better is good. Plumbers do it. Electricians do it. Real Estaters do it. Flower shops do it. Even finger nail technicians do it.

 

[CES020]

Plumbers do it. Electricians do it. Real Estaters do it.

They regulate and train because there is a code that keeps people from getting killed or hurt. Not sure I've ever seen one get hurt from a coroplast sign being poorly designed and sold for $6.

Want to hang signs overhead? You already need to submit plans and have them approved by the government in most places.

They are talking about trying to regulate something that causes no harm to anyone. People do crappy work all day, every day, every trade. Eventually, they move on because their reputation gets around. That's life. Instead of bitching about it, capitalize from it and show people how you are better. It's an opportunity to make your business stronger, instead, some don't want to get off their butt and do anything other than have customers walk through the door and collect the cash because no one else is around as competition.

Why not take this to the walmart level? Walmart sells things for less, and they sell items that are often poor quality. All those in favor of all this certification, I hope you'll be first in line to try and regulate walmart from selling low cost items as well.

I have a laser. I was in Cracker Barrel last week and saw some laser cut ornaments. Probably took about 5-6 minutes each to make plus materials. I looked at the tag, it was .99 cents and said "made in china". So should I go try and get some certifications put in place? Or should I figure out that I shouldn't try and compete in the .99 cent category?

 

[Techman]

They are talking about trying to regulate something that causes no harm to anyone.

IMHO...
That's where the self regulating would apply. Some things just are not worthy of any regulations. Who wants to stop some kid from hand making his lemonade sign. Just like in Real Estate. You can sell your own home without regulations. Or, you can fix your own stopped sink.

Self regulating would prevent the harm caused by lamers entering and selling contact paper. Getting a certification in place would help us all. It would greatly reduce the harm caused to the industry via the untrained. It wont stop the determined. But it will deter the tourists and eavesdroppers.

Geeses, I just bid against a guy who wants to use Silicone caulk as paint on a friggin awning. He claims that white rubbery stuff on the sunbrella material is white silicone caulk. All she saw was a job costing 1/3 as much. Tell me there is no harm going on.. His plan would financially harm this bizz owner. yes??????