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Will the real DeSoto please stand up.....
- Thread starter Sergio DeSoto
- Start date
this is so bizarre how many turns it took from the original post.
Sergio DeSoto
New Member
I just walked in from a long day the shop, thank you to everyone who welcomed me to the board. I hope to be a contribution and help where ever I can. Gino.. I am good for my word and thanks for taking the time to write a well thought out response.. I know you are a thinker and it shows.
Being back in the shop and fighting the fight at the ground level is a good thing and I missed it..
I did take an extended lunch break to have a large object cleared from my Colon and for some reason I can see alot better now! Thanks for the suggestion..
I do hope that some serious discussions come up on the subject of certification, if nothing else to get people thinking then possibly taking action..
I am going to bed! I have not worked this hard in oh,,,, 3 years or so. if there is anything I can do to help anyone out do not hesitate to ask.
Have a good evening..
Sergio
Being back in the shop and fighting the fight at the ground level is a good thing and I missed it..
I did take an extended lunch break to have a large object cleared from my Colon and for some reason I can see alot better now! Thanks for the suggestion..
I do hope that some serious discussions come up on the subject of certification, if nothing else to get people thinking then possibly taking action..
I am going to bed! I have not worked this hard in oh,,,, 3 years or so. if there is anything I can do to help anyone out do not hesitate to ask.
Have a good evening..
Sergio
Sergio DeSoto
New Member
oh and aprox 60-70 percent of the people who tested did not pass the exam. No lie..
Ok good night
Ok good night
S
Sign-Man Signs
Guest
Welcome Sergio. Glad to see you finally came out of the closet, so to speak. I once was keel hauled for two weeks for calling you a loser on this forum. I never met you and based my personal opinion on the facts I knew as you jumping around to different companies and giving away your knowledge to those leeches.
Since reading your post, I think you have developed a product (yourself) and have promoted it very well. I'm glad to see you back at your original company and I wish you well.
As Dan Striker and Gino have stated, your let's say attacks on anyone not being certified is a pretty good self promoting marketing tool for you. As most everyone here knows I'm not a wrap guy and have managed to get along for 15 years without any type of certification.
The wrap business as we know it has hit a wall due to the economy. I personally have had more vinyl business wise in the past few months due to the fact of the high cost of wraps. Never once has a customer asked me for any type of certification in the past 15 years I have been in business. You, Fellers, Lowen, 3M, promote the certification as a marking tool and berate those that don't advertise it. To me this is very mis-leading to the customer and dare I say dis-honest.
Those that do wraps as a business without "certification" have managed to do so because they are honest and truthful with their customers. I have a friend here local that does an excellent wraps without any kind of certification and his work to me, in my opinion as a sign maker and graphics designer is top notch.
I commend you on your coming out presentation and keep up the good fight on "need to be certified" champaign. It has served you well and has made you a living, so far.
I'm changing my loser opinion of you and up grading you to just self promoting.By the way, I am a "certified" a-hole and like everyone else here, my opinion is just that, my opinion which in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean doodley.
By the way, who the hell is Cappy?
Since reading your post, I think you have developed a product (yourself) and have promoted it very well. I'm glad to see you back at your original company and I wish you well.
As Dan Striker and Gino have stated, your let's say attacks on anyone not being certified is a pretty good self promoting marketing tool for you. As most everyone here knows I'm not a wrap guy and have managed to get along for 15 years without any type of certification.
The wrap business as we know it has hit a wall due to the economy. I personally have had more vinyl business wise in the past few months due to the fact of the high cost of wraps. Never once has a customer asked me for any type of certification in the past 15 years I have been in business. You, Fellers, Lowen, 3M, promote the certification as a marking tool and berate those that don't advertise it. To me this is very mis-leading to the customer and dare I say dis-honest.
Those that do wraps as a business without "certification" have managed to do so because they are honest and truthful with their customers. I have a friend here local that does an excellent wraps without any kind of certification and his work to me, in my opinion as a sign maker and graphics designer is top notch.
I commend you on your coming out presentation and keep up the good fight on "need to be certified" champaign. It has served you well and has made you a living, so far.
I'm changing my loser opinion of you and up grading you to just self promoting.By the way, I am a "certified" a-hole and like everyone else here, my opinion is just that, my opinion which in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean doodley.
By the way, who the hell is Cappy?
3M are just one of many manufacturers so what's the advantage of a big Red 3M logo slapped everywhere?
I personally would use at least half a dozen other brands before being forced to pay over the odds for average or poor quality 3M gear.
If you are going to all the hassle of certificates and testing surely a whole of market vinyl approach would be better.
If you are 3M certified when I expressly DON'T want to use 3M how does your cert help?
I personally would use at least half a dozen other brands before being forced to pay over the odds for average or poor quality 3M gear.
If you are going to all the hassle of certificates and testing surely a whole of market vinyl approach would be better.
If you are 3M certified when I expressly DON'T want to use 3M how does your cert help?
BobM
New Member
Welcome from Cape of Cod.
Certification designed and sponsored by a manufacturer has to be by design self serving. What other interest can a manufacturer have for the time and expense other than to promote it's self? Should Oracal and Avery have competing certifications?
Manufacturer's should spend their money on training installers who then could take a certification test administered by a national sign organization. The self interest of the organization is to raise the standards of it's members, not the brand of vinyl they use.
One in 25 wraps that I see meet good design criteria. The rest are just a splash of conflicting colors, shapes, fills, random flashes and general confusion.
Certification designed and sponsored by a manufacturer has to be by design self serving. What other interest can a manufacturer have for the time and expense other than to promote it's self? Should Oracal and Avery have competing certifications?
Manufacturer's should spend their money on training installers who then could take a certification test administered by a national sign organization. The self interest of the organization is to raise the standards of it's members, not the brand of vinyl they use.
One in 25 wraps that I see meet good design criteria. The rest are just a splash of conflicting colors, shapes, fills, random flashes and general confusion.
threads1
New Member
Welcome Sergio........
I’m fairly new to the sign business and every day is a learning experience for me. I have a bunch of questions that will take years to get the answers to. Because each new type of job I encounter IS a learning experience. So it seems odd to me that a corporate giant like 3M would limit their sales to only certified installers. I would venture a guess that less than 5% of 3M users are/will be certified. Will 3M send the other 95% of their customers packing?
If I were any of the Vinyl manufacturers, my first concern would be education. I would be offering low cost or free classes to sign shop owners. It kills me to see how much money some suppliers want to charge to learn how to use a product they sell. This process seems Ass-Backwards to me. The more I know will help me sell more of their product. Everybody wins!
As most everyone has stated…..the customer will care less about any type of certification. Only a good job done will be on their minds. Just my 2 cents worth.
Have a great day.
I’m fairly new to the sign business and every day is a learning experience for me. I have a bunch of questions that will take years to get the answers to. Because each new type of job I encounter IS a learning experience. So it seems odd to me that a corporate giant like 3M would limit their sales to only certified installers. I would venture a guess that less than 5% of 3M users are/will be certified. Will 3M send the other 95% of their customers packing?
If I were any of the Vinyl manufacturers, my first concern would be education. I would be offering low cost or free classes to sign shop owners. It kills me to see how much money some suppliers want to charge to learn how to use a product they sell. This process seems Ass-Backwards to me. The more I know will help me sell more of their product. Everybody wins!
As most everyone has stated…..the customer will care less about any type of certification. Only a good job done will be on their minds. Just my 2 cents worth.
Have a great day.
signage
New Member
Welcome to the forums Sergio!
I also am not a wrapper and see no gain from anyone being certified by one company doing one type of job! I think the certification/training should cover all aspects of the industry! This would help said business and suppliers! Good job on promoting yourself the past 3 years!
I also am not a wrapper and see no gain from anyone being certified by one company doing one type of job! I think the certification/training should cover all aspects of the industry! This would help said business and suppliers! Good job on promoting yourself the past 3 years!
CES020
New Member
I've never understood that either. There was one not too far away recently and I thought the subject matter was interesting and something I could offer if I knew more about it, but didn't have any plans on spending money to learn about their product. Want me to sell your product? Good, then educate me on it. Want to charge me money to learn about your product? No thanks.
Now, I also understand there may be some higher end training involved on products and taking your skill to the next level might very well cost you money. I'm fine with that, but to charge me money just to learn what products you offer ain't gonna happen from me.
S
Sign-Man Signs
Guest
I've never understood that either. There was one not too far away recently and I thought the subject matter was interesting and something I could offer if I knew more about it, but didn't have any plans on spending money to learn about their product. Want me to sell your product? Good, then educate me on it. Want to charge me money to learn about your product? No thanks.
Now, I also understand there may be some higher end training involved on products and taking your skill to the next level might very well cost you money. I'm fine with that, but to charge me money just to learn what products you offer ain't gonna happen from me.
Sorta goes along with trade shows that charge you $10.00 bucks to get in to see companies products that you may buy. Never got that.
Joe Diaz
New Member
I was thinking about this yesterday. I have absolutely no problem with any system that is designed to improve the quality of a service, but when it comes to wraps, you can't just stop at installation. There really should be a better effort in teaching better design practices.
I haven't had a customer stop in and complain about wraps as a whole because of wrinkles or bubbles. I have had non sign makers come in to our shop and say that they dislike wraps because they are ugly or too busy. Now these folks didn't say they just dislike poorly designed wraps, they assumed all wraps are designed that same way. That is a problem in my opinion.
Sure installation is important, but a layout that properly gets the message across is just as important if not more important. And there are a lot of wraps out there that aren't worth the price tag because they don't do what they are meant to do. And that is to help the client sell their product or service. A perfect installation won't change that.
I haven't had a customer stop in and complain about wraps as a whole because of wrinkles or bubbles. I have had non sign makers come in to our shop and say that they dislike wraps because they are ugly or too busy. Now these folks didn't say they just dislike poorly designed wraps, they assumed all wraps are designed that same way. That is a problem in my opinion.
Sure installation is important, but a layout that properly gets the message across is just as important if not more important. And there are a lot of wraps out there that aren't worth the price tag because they don't do what they are meant to do. And that is to help the client sell their product or service. A perfect installation won't change that.
Techman
New Member
I don't get it at all.
One one hand many bash, whine and cry over the fact that just any old body can get a low ball cutter, and some vinyl, then charge low ball prices,,, Damage the industry,,,and call themselves a sign maker.
When someone comes along with the backing to make a difference to do something about raising the professional levels in one area of vinyl work and suddenly its the new arising of the antichrist.
I don't see any one offering up a viable alternative..
One one hand many bash, whine and cry over the fact that just any old body can get a low ball cutter, and some vinyl, then charge low ball prices,,, Damage the industry,,,and call themselves a sign maker.
When someone comes along with the backing to make a difference to do something about raising the professional levels in one area of vinyl work and suddenly its the new arising of the antichrist.
I don't see any one offering up a viable alternative..
Mikeifg
New Member
All I'm looking for is something to raise the industry standards and put the low ballers out of business. That's whats hurting us right now. It's not the certification. On a local level dealing with local companies they are more concerned about price over certification. Price over quality and it sucks right now that the part time doing it for beer money guys are killing the industry as a whole. I was on a removal job the other day for a company and one of their employees Bubba J, was asking me questions about how to do it etc... I ignored him then he said he was going to put a bid in on the same job. It's people like this that frustrates you. Anyway Good Luck Sergio.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Now here’s a real welcome back… to the work force part of the equation. LOL The old term from Rick….. ‘In the Trenches’ comes to mind here. It doesn’t matter how dirty your hands get or how long you spend on a computer for a customer… it all goes into the end product and I think one tends to lose touch with what the majority of sign shops have to deal with on a day to day basis. So, I am glad you’re back in the work force and will be able to rationalize the need for this service, from our point of view, but on a much larger scale.
I appreciate the fact…. you didn’t take my and many other comments to heart and get bent out of shape like so many before you.
There is definitely a need to standardize much of our industry over again. Throughout the last half century or more… like the ‘20s on up to about the 90’s… there was only room for tradesman and that type of work ethics. With the way the economy has gone and the introduction of methods that have allowed many people into this industry…. it has hit an all time low for creativity, business, competition and most importantly…. creativeness. A craft where it took pure talent to produce anything has been made so easy as to only have to push a button and presto…. You have an instantly ugly made sign has been my biggest pet peeve. Am I saying people that can’t draw shouldn’t be in this industry ?? No, not at all, but it would help if most people at least understood the basics of design, color, fabrication, engineering, math and business. If the people in this industry understood those few things…. we wouldn’t have so many heated arguments… you had to start somewhere or I’ll bet I can get this done cheaper by doing this, this and that.
Serg, I think you’re just hitting on the tip of the iceberg. Sure, the wraps need to be certified, but not from a stand point of being a money maker for those companies that have jumped on that band wagon and are trying to railroad yet another means to strike us with a money making proposition that is only one sided….. for them. We need to have sessions that everyone can afford time-wise and money-wise. These guys that want to sell us substrates, media AND lessons are getting a little out of hand.
I think we could serve our industry better if we get some great minds from all areas of making signs and throw ideas of how to improve design, the actual making of signs, electric, screening, blasting and put all of these on a table and discuss them. It won’t take a weekend of brainstorming or a two day gathering of great minds to do this…. NO, not for this.... not what I have in mind. It will take months and months of hard work hammering out all the areas. Possibly even a year or so to get some real results. Then, when everything is considered, there will be areas of signmaking, neon or electrical, printing, layout design and graphic art classes available for everyone…. and at affordable prices.
Now I would venture to say, if someone doesn’t want to attend these classes or become certified in a particular area, then they should not be allowed to practice in our industry. Sweet and simple. If they intend to stay at home and not further their education…. That’s on them. They made a decision not to participate in the fundamentals of Signsmaking 101.
Charging outrageous prices to become wrap certified is wrong. I could care less if someone is certified, but to actually pass testing in all phases one is concerned with makes more sense to me.
For those that think they don’t have the time… or it’s a waste of time… or a violation for you to do business…. or too expensive…….
Now, some of these learning experiences took longer than other and some cost much more than others. What is important to you…. becoming good at what you do or just trying to beat the other guy out when and wherever you can ?? Why not have a plan and those that don’t…. will fade away for sure.
I appreciate the fact…. you didn’t take my and many other comments to heart and get bent out of shape like so many before you.
There is definitely a need to standardize much of our industry over again. Throughout the last half century or more… like the ‘20s on up to about the 90’s… there was only room for tradesman and that type of work ethics. With the way the economy has gone and the introduction of methods that have allowed many people into this industry…. it has hit an all time low for creativity, business, competition and most importantly…. creativeness. A craft where it took pure talent to produce anything has been made so easy as to only have to push a button and presto…. You have an instantly ugly made sign has been my biggest pet peeve. Am I saying people that can’t draw shouldn’t be in this industry ?? No, not at all, but it would help if most people at least understood the basics of design, color, fabrication, engineering, math and business. If the people in this industry understood those few things…. we wouldn’t have so many heated arguments… you had to start somewhere or I’ll bet I can get this done cheaper by doing this, this and that.
Serg, I think you’re just hitting on the tip of the iceberg. Sure, the wraps need to be certified, but not from a stand point of being a money maker for those companies that have jumped on that band wagon and are trying to railroad yet another means to strike us with a money making proposition that is only one sided….. for them. We need to have sessions that everyone can afford time-wise and money-wise. These guys that want to sell us substrates, media AND lessons are getting a little out of hand.
I think we could serve our industry better if we get some great minds from all areas of making signs and throw ideas of how to improve design, the actual making of signs, electric, screening, blasting and put all of these on a table and discuss them. It won’t take a weekend of brainstorming or a two day gathering of great minds to do this…. NO, not for this.... not what I have in mind. It will take months and months of hard work hammering out all the areas. Possibly even a year or so to get some real results. Then, when everything is considered, there will be areas of signmaking, neon or electrical, printing, layout design and graphic art classes available for everyone…. and at affordable prices.
Now I would venture to say, if someone doesn’t want to attend these classes or become certified in a particular area, then they should not be allowed to practice in our industry. Sweet and simple. If they intend to stay at home and not further their education…. That’s on them. They made a decision not to participate in the fundamentals of Signsmaking 101.
Charging outrageous prices to become wrap certified is wrong. I could care less if someone is certified, but to actually pass testing in all phases one is concerned with makes more sense to me.
For those that think they don’t have the time… or it’s a waste of time… or a violation for you to do business…. or too expensive…….
- How long did you practice riding a dirt bike ??
- How long did you go to school to learn the basics ??
- How long did you learn karate ??
- How long did you take to become a Fireman or cop ??
- How long did you take to become a marksman at the rifle range ??
- How long did you take to swim ??
- How long did it take you to become good at anything ??
Now, some of these learning experiences took longer than other and some cost much more than others. What is important to you…. becoming good at what you do or just trying to beat the other guy out when and wherever you can ?? Why not have a plan and those that don’t…. will fade away for sure.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
my brief quick thoughts on legitimizing our industry...
at this point i feel that at some point individual states are going to get involved such as in florida...there are too many ppl out there doing substandard work.
i feel that the only way to get it under control at this point is for municipalities to require a proof of a certain amount of time in the trade for you to be eligible for a business license, if you are working on vehicles you should have to provide proof of adequate insurance (garage keepers, etc) if you are working on building signage you should have to provide adequate insurance/bond/ etc, if you are installing you should be required to have a contractors license (this is not required in many states).
as far as manufacturers providing certification the only way it makes any sense to me is if they require certification for specialized materials and they flat out will not sell you the materials if you do nto have their certification, as is normal in many other industries. the benefit of this to the manufacturer is that their product is not used/installed/applied/whatever by ppl who do not know what they are doing causing premature failure, shortened longevity,etc...causing embarassment to the manufacture.
the problem with that is that the material(s) are not identifiable to the general public (3m, oracal, whatever) versus a name brand furnace or air conditioner or something to that effect that the company is going to look bad if their product is not installed correctly.
every person in our trade that is interested in legitimizing our trade should be involved with their municipalities to help with the requirements for getting a business license and helping to rewrite sign codes for us sign guys.
at this point the market is only going to become further saturated with low price equipment just as we have seen with plotters, we will see and are seeing with printers and for us sign guys we are also seeing it with cnc routers,etc. the barriers to entry are not going to come through equipment pricing.
it is the suppliers job to sell product, in my opinion we are foolish to think that they are going to legitimize any portion of the industry...it isnt in their best interest.
if a manufacturer like lowen wants to certify their installers great for them..i can't blame them a bit for wanting to verify that they are sending out their product for installation to ppl that have proven their ability to install...but it doesn't legitimize our industry in the least and means nothing to the public or to the trade as a whole.
in my opinion sites like this should not be available to the general public...just like hvac forums etc you have to prove you're licensed etc.
but just being honest in my opinion we are going to see more of the same...more yahoos entering the trade that continue to drive down prices and drive down the perception of our industry by doing piss poor work.
at this point i feel that at some point individual states are going to get involved such as in florida...there are too many ppl out there doing substandard work.
i feel that the only way to get it under control at this point is for municipalities to require a proof of a certain amount of time in the trade for you to be eligible for a business license, if you are working on vehicles you should have to provide proof of adequate insurance (garage keepers, etc) if you are working on building signage you should have to provide adequate insurance/bond/ etc, if you are installing you should be required to have a contractors license (this is not required in many states).
as far as manufacturers providing certification the only way it makes any sense to me is if they require certification for specialized materials and they flat out will not sell you the materials if you do nto have their certification, as is normal in many other industries. the benefit of this to the manufacturer is that their product is not used/installed/applied/whatever by ppl who do not know what they are doing causing premature failure, shortened longevity,etc...causing embarassment to the manufacture.
the problem with that is that the material(s) are not identifiable to the general public (3m, oracal, whatever) versus a name brand furnace or air conditioner or something to that effect that the company is going to look bad if their product is not installed correctly.
every person in our trade that is interested in legitimizing our trade should be involved with their municipalities to help with the requirements for getting a business license and helping to rewrite sign codes for us sign guys.
at this point the market is only going to become further saturated with low price equipment just as we have seen with plotters, we will see and are seeing with printers and for us sign guys we are also seeing it with cnc routers,etc. the barriers to entry are not going to come through equipment pricing.
it is the suppliers job to sell product, in my opinion we are foolish to think that they are going to legitimize any portion of the industry...it isnt in their best interest.
if a manufacturer like lowen wants to certify their installers great for them..i can't blame them a bit for wanting to verify that they are sending out their product for installation to ppl that have proven their ability to install...but it doesn't legitimize our industry in the least and means nothing to the public or to the trade as a whole.
in my opinion sites like this should not be available to the general public...just like hvac forums etc you have to prove you're licensed etc.
but just being honest in my opinion we are going to see more of the same...more yahoos entering the trade that continue to drive down prices and drive down the perception of our industry by doing piss poor work.
iSign
New Member
I couldn't believe nobody said this sooner... I mean there have been a few who spoke in favor of the certification concept... but in response to claims that the certification training & testing should be free, paid for by the suppliers to help them sell more vinyl??? aaarrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!
That is exactly what we bitch & moan about every day with the barrier for entry so low, and the pusher-man suppliers making printers so accessible, so they can lock in the dependency of another shop... buying a whole arsenal of new media, once they got their printer sold at a low profit margin just to get another whole generation addicted to aspects of this industry the requires endless supplies of peripheral material...
NO!!! ...wrap training should NOT be given free... that's pure idiocy... and certification testing should also not be free...
...and on the topic of certification... let me start by saying I am not a "wrap shop"... I've done a few, I'll do a few more... and if the demand grew to vastly increased frequency & numbers in my market... I might become more interested in this topic... but for now, I am more of an innocent bystander to this discussion...
but, I think there has probably been several detailed discussions that most of us have not participated in, and I think a lot of the concepts here seem to be flying right over peoples heads... but who knows, maybe it's me that doesn't get it... however to me, I think that "quality certifications" for various areas of this (or any) industry are a level of professionalism & organizational cooperation that makes sense, has value & deserves our attention... BUT, I don't think the fact that one small niche should not be allowed to pioneer the way without being challenged for leaving out another niche...
Of course design work is of critical importance in the sign industry, & of course business skill, & ethics are another critical component... as is the marketing concepts to exist between the business of selling & the designs our clients are buying... the marketing ideas are also where good design, becomes effective design.. and clients aren't just sold on buying, they are sold on investing... which could mean investing more, AND benefiting more..
So, sales, marketing, & design skills could all become aspects of our industry that qualified "proven" veterans might some day have a certification on the wall, which could lend credibility to that shops dedication to excellence.. for the other shops who are excellent without certification... fine, at this stage I don't see legislation ever prohibiting un-certified sticker sticking... and for those who's work speaks loud enough for itself, maybe they won't all want to invest in standardized forms of recognition to impress their existing client base... but their competitors may consider it a valid selling point to build up a series of established credentials...
...sorry, I'm always building tangent upon tangent... but my point is big ideas start somewhere... and a wrap certification that doesn't address the value of standardized design qualifications is still a good thing for what it is, regardless of what it isn't. It could become a model, and other aspects of this industry could learn from this innovative direction being pioneered by one small subset of our industry... we shouldn't bash it for being a small good idea, because it can grow. It's not a bad idea!
TheSellOut
New Member
I am blown away that some states do not require a contractors license to install! My shop is on the border of PA & NY and I have to purchase a contractors license for each individual town that I plan on working in, which requires proof on insurance! In NY you have to show proof of workers comp to have anyone out there with you!
3dsignco
New Member
I have to applaud Sergio. We all may not agree with everything but it has really opened up some intelligent discussions. (And some not so intelligent remarks) But now the Million Dollar questions is.
What now, we as an industry do we do about it. You will never get rid of the Lowballers or people that just have no Pride and don't care, but what about about more education. I have no Idea how you could get someone to read Mike Stevens Book..(Or even a Cliff note version) If the dang Plotter companies would just add that book alone to their Package deals. I think you might see a slight change.(at least in some better design).
I have no problem with someone picking up a new plotter and trying to learn the business, But if they come here and try to ask a question about it all they get is a snide ass remark and pushed along their way..(I am just as guilty)
We want more education, Maybe we should start it here.. We have a whole section of the site Dedicated to Education with a whole 20 or so posts and most of them by Fred the owner of the site. Kinda of a hard sell to people to become paying members without much reward.
I will make the first effort to help. Here is a list of books I scanned to .PDF in from the late 1800s early 1900s about sign making and lettering which many of the same principles still apply today.
I have a bunch more but most of the copyrights are still in place (Even though they are out of print)so I won't scan them.
If one of the Admins would like to move the links to the downloads Section I would appreciate it.
1927 Speedball book.
http://www.3dsignco.com/1927speedball.zip
Ames Alphabets 1884
http://www.3dsignco.com/Ames.zip
"Art of Ticket Writing" 1887
http://www.3dsignco.com/Ticket.zip
1956 Speedball book.
http://www.3dsignco.com/Speedball.zip
Link Fixed
What now, we as an industry do we do about it. You will never get rid of the Lowballers or people that just have no Pride and don't care, but what about about more education. I have no Idea how you could get someone to read Mike Stevens Book..(Or even a Cliff note version) If the dang Plotter companies would just add that book alone to their Package deals. I think you might see a slight change.(at least in some better design).
I have no problem with someone picking up a new plotter and trying to learn the business, But if they come here and try to ask a question about it all they get is a snide ass remark and pushed along their way..(I am just as guilty)
We want more education, Maybe we should start it here.. We have a whole section of the site Dedicated to Education with a whole 20 or so posts and most of them by Fred the owner of the site. Kinda of a hard sell to people to become paying members without much reward.
I will make the first effort to help. Here is a list of books I scanned to .PDF in from the late 1800s early 1900s about sign making and lettering which many of the same principles still apply today.
I have a bunch more but most of the copyrights are still in place (Even though they are out of print)so I won't scan them.
If one of the Admins would like to move the links to the downloads Section I would appreciate it.
1927 Speedball book.
http://www.3dsignco.com/1927speedball.zip
Ames Alphabets 1884
http://www.3dsignco.com/Ames.zip
"Art of Ticket Writing" 1887
http://www.3dsignco.com/Ticket.zip
1956 Speedball book.
http://www.3dsignco.com/Speedball.zip
Link Fixed
Last edited:
DOGraphics
New Member
Hey Bill,
That is great.
Thanks a lot.
p.s.: The 1956 Speedball above didn't seem to work.
^^^ It works in the other thread titled "Continuining Sign Education" ^^^
.