Will the real DeSoto please stand up.....

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Ce the problem is that they dont just do corrugated signs..i could care less about corrugated signs i havent made a corrugated sign for probably 10yrs...but those ppl have a friend that needs an overhead sign and they do it having no idea of standard practices...and just so you know building codes as far as signs are concerned are not universal..there are municipalities that i know for a FACT you do not need a contractors license to mount a sign above head, to a building, to the extremes of mounting a pole sign...there are municipalities where you can service electrical signs without an electrical license...myself i see great danger in these inconsistencies.

i have used the lack of artistic ability to sell more projects than i can count, i am not concerned about one's lack of artistic ability i am concerned about those masquerading as advertising and marketing geniuses when they don't have the education or the experience...as someone mentioned earlier in regards to waving their degree around to sell a job, just like training being a requirement to sell insurance or investments why is it accepted that people in our trade can masquerade as professionals when education and training should be a requirement if you are presenting yourself as someone who can do that work?

 

[CES020]

Dan, I agree that there should be some regulation on the signs that are installed where they could fall on someone and kill them. There are regulations around and that's what state and local governments are for. Don't like it, change it.

This started as a wrap discussion. Are you really telling me that because someone installs a wrap with a lesser product and it pulls away and causes an air bubble in a rain track, that we need regulation?

There's a Loooooooooonggggg way between a sign falling on someone or someone working on a sign getting killed by electricity in a sign cabinet and an air bubble in someone's wrap.

Techman, your customer had a choice. That's their choice. If you educated them, then the free market will take care of it. If they decide to go with the hack, then it's money out of their pocket. It's not your call, it's their call and you have no right to take that call away from them. If they really run their business with decisions like that, then who are you to stop them?

 

[Techman]

Techman, your customer had a choice. That's their choice.

Yes it is the clients choice. There is a difference between a bad job and actually fraud. There are laws against shake downs and fraud. That lamer is making claims that do not fit any ones standards.

It is my living that is being affected by a fraud. It is her life affected by a fraud. It is your job that is being affected by the very same fraud in your town.

If you educated them, then the free market will take care of it.

Yes the free market did take care of it. I got the work. However, what about the several other real technicians who did not get considered because the client did not know any better. I was lucky to overhear what he told the client.

The wrap industry is trying to make some positive changes. Every one can benefit too from their model.

 

[iSign]

there's a lot of people having weighed in on this topic, & there's a lot of people with only undeveloped ideas beginning to formulate, or partially explained ideas that are not clear...

...whatever the case, there are far more than ONE idea being discussed here, & I see some co-mingling of ideas that were never expressed as one idea...


...first of all, "certification" and "regulation" are 2 different things... secondly, "regulation" doesn't automatically mean Government regulation... (such as my regulator on my compressor, or me regulating how large of bids are entrusted to my staff without me overseeing it)

So, to contest the general concepts of certification by stacking the deck full of inflated perceptions of big brother taking some little sticker cutters rights away... (if that is even close to what anyone here ever said or ever meant, which I doubt)... it's far far away from the real conversation most here are trying to have.

Regarding a cert. program put out by a vendor (like 3M etc...) ...I also think this concept has been blown out of proportion by one or two shoot-from-the-hip comments about refusing to sell vinyl to non certified buyers... If someone said that, it may have been one small part of some half baked, make-it-up-as-you-go theory... but that is NOT what IS taking place, and is NOT what any serious parts of this discussion (that I have seen) are really trying to get at...

...And I don't think everyone that sees possible merit in a certification program to rank installers, would also think everyone else should NOT be allowed to install... it is just an extra feather in their cap to use in marketing!

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

CE have you read the entire thread? i said much earlier that everyone who is concerned should be involved with their local municipalities to rewrite codes, etc.

i know many shops that claim to be 'wrap only' shops....yet i still see signs leaving with their customers. there is a huge percentage of the industry that thinks the whole damn thing needs certification. why would you certify a tiny segment of the industry? it makes no sense except for those doing the certifying...it's a joke.

in regards to am i saying there could be a problem with a bubble in a wrap ....yes i am. think about buses hell i've even applied graphics on airplanes... your limiting your perspective to a very small segment of the market.

 

[CES020]

It is my living that is being affected by a fraud. It is her life affected by a fraud. It is your job that is being affected by the very same fraud in your town.

There are already laws against fraud. If it's truly fraud, then the law will sort it out in court.


Doug, I agree with that. I'm all for anyone getting certified by anyone that wants to run a certification program. You can put the certificate on your wall, call the local media, put stickers on your front window or run commercials saying you are not "XYZ certified".

But regulation? I don't get that part of it. Again, we're talking about vinyl stuck to a car, not medical devices.

Yes, I did pick up on the part of the discussion where people were saying that if you weren't certified then you shouldn't be allowed to buy the material. Apparently that's not the consensus, but it was mentioned and that's the part that I don't agree with. Now, if 3M doesn't want to sell you material because you aren't trained on how to install it, that's their business. However, it's not anyone's right but 3M's. And if 3M decides to do that, they'll have to live with the fact that they will be creating a market for their competition, a market for all those that didn't get the training. Again, free market concept at work.

Certify all you want, I think cert's are valuable. Regulation? No thanks. It's a sticker, get over it.

 

[Carl Crabtree]

we don't need no stinkin' badges!!!

 

[kstompaint]

Dan- Youre saying that nobody is advocating government involvement (though some have) and that it's a minority who would even suggest the manufacturers sell material only to certified shops. The road to hell was paved with good intentions. Ever hear of incrementalism? One thing leads to another and your good intentions result in just what you say nobody is even considering.

How it is now is fine. The manufacturers are free to offer certification, and you are free to persue it... or not. Like CES said, let the free market take care of it. There are hacks in every business. Things work themselves out. We used to letter a lot of stock cars, but haven't done one in years. This is due to the advent of the cheap plotter. Fine, I'm not going to cry in my wheaties about it or demand that the government or 3M solve the problem for me. You shouldn't either.

If you do quality work and you're not a jerk, you'll be fine. Those who don't will fall by the wayside or end up lettering stock cars for $100... whatever.

 

[iSign]

Certify all you want, I think cert's are valuable. Regulation? No thanks. It's a sticker, get over it.

I think you are imagining a difference that doesn't exist simply in the choice of words... if there is a difference to you, I don't believe you can have a meaningful discussion unless you make yourself clear.. saying certs are valuable & regs are not?... you're not saying anything as far as I'm concerned...

same outspoken signman didn't like me saying on his poll... but oversimplification leads to confusion...

...someone saying they are going to put & new & complex topic 'to bed' by whipping out a half-baked poll is about as meaningful as say vote if you know how many fingers I'm holding up... some vote yes, some vote no... maybe I ain't holding any freakin fingers up...

...so why even talk about something if you're going to leave it all vague fuzzy & undefined Reg? Cert?

...it takes a lot more then even spellin' the whole damn word out before you can guarantee you have successfully communicated the meaning of a concept enough to offer or solicit an opinion on that concept.

 

[kstompaint]

...so why even talk about something if you're going to leave it all vague fuzzy & undefined Reg? Cert?

certification = voluntary
regulation = involuntary

Clear enough?

 

[Graphics.Atl]

That's interesting Dan, I'd argue that there are 1000's of industries out there that feel the same thing about their industry. It's called technology and progress and I haven't seen anyone stop it yet. I'm just amazed at how many people think the sign industry is unique to these issues and the items discussed only apply to signs.

It's YOUR job to do a better job with customers letting them know their options and how the other people are using contact paper from wal-mart. If you are competing and losing to them, then that's the fault of your marketing and sales. Take responsibility for it and change it. Don't want to compete against that, then figure out how to get the message to your potential customers.

But taking someone's rights or abilities away because you don't think they are qualified? Wow....that's a huge stretch there. And as I said, guess who'll still be around? The big guys. The little guys won't be able to afford it (by design), and then you can get back to charging all you want and raping your customers if you wish because you have no competition.

I can't even believe I'm reading comments where people suggest you can freely take someone's right away to do business because YOU think they do crap work. It's a free market and that's how free markets work. Don't like it? Tough luck.

I'm just shocked that any artist on this forum would believe it's okay to limit someone's ability to create because some board or council doesn't approve of their ability to create something that is acceptable by some industry sponsored group.

Wow.....

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

when i was a young guy and left the family sign company (that was in business for 77 yrs just for reference) i went and sold sign supplies and equipment and believe me at the end of the month when i got my commision check i was stoked that everyone was hopping into the sign business (this was 15yrs ago) and every day that i wasnt training a new equipment owner i was in at least 10 different shops a day.

having prior industry experience i can not tell you how many days i went home shaking my head in disbelief at some of the practices i had seen. there are many in this 'trade' that have no idea that they are doing things bass ackwards because they 'trained' themselves. i have even seen people selling neon that they 'trained' themselves how to do...if you know anything about neon Ha Ha Ha...that's all i have to say about that.

now 15yrs later i see what has happened and it is frightening. i can not imagine what things will be like 15yrs from now...actually i can because i know what equipment and material developments are on the horizon.

 

[CES020]

certification = voluntary
regulation = involuntary

Clear enough?

Exactly. Didn't know it was hard to follow, but I guess I wasn't clear enough, so see kstompaint's response.

 

[CES020]

This was done by a professional here :

http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56603

Wasn't done by some hack in a basement with equipment bought off of ebay. Was done by certified, qualified sign company that's been in business for over 40 years. So what's that value to the customer for all that "advanced" training? Not much.

 

[iSign]

sorry you're not getting enough response on your thread CE... maybe you can siphon a little traffic off a little from this 5 pg topic to keep it from bombing too bad...

 

[kgirl]

 

[CES020]

Wasn't trying to get traffic to a thread. I don't judge my life's success by how many people read my posts on a sign forum. I'm glad I see where your train of thought is on that one, so thanks for clearing that up. I'd expect nothing less from you than attacking me personally now instead of continuing the discussion. I guess if you can't act like an adult, then you revert to attacking the person posting. Good thing you've never been accused of that before. Great leadership!

You're a big wig around here, delete the link if it bothers you. I thought it was clearly showing that no matter how many certifications (spelled it out for you this time) you get, it doesn't keep you from doing poor quality work.

I guess I really do need to spell out my train of thought for you from now on.

 

[Bigdawg]

Absolutely no reason to delete the link and that's not something iSign can do anyway...

 

[iSign]

hey Sergio... if wrap installation certifications aren't going to ensure against electrical failures, what good are they?

 

[CES020]

You just can't resist being an a**hole, can you? Great leadership from the "President".

If you've got a problem with what I said, how about manning up and sending me a private message or email and said "Dude, I don't see where you're coming from and it's off topic", or "I wanted to take this offline before it turned into a misunderstanding".

But no, you don't do that because no one can see you puff out your chest and act like a big man. Grow up dude. This is, what, about the 3rd time you've done this act with me? Seen it before.

Now, despite the way you've spoken to me, I've been the one that remained fair. When you were mentioned in an article online, who posted it so everyone else could see it? I did. Who congratulated you? I did.

I'll stop doing that from now on, because no matter what I do or say, you'll always be the bully.