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Free Avery Vinyl
- Thread starter SignStudent
- Start date
Joe Diaz
New Member
What I don't understand is why some are still using this product when a huge group of people in this industry are yelling at the top of their lungs "DON"T USE THIS FILM" and actually have proof of its failure.
Keep in mind this has happened more than once. After the first time this happened, people tried to say it was "all better now", "they changed their ways". Then it happened to them again.
Like Fred said: "fool me once..."
I don't know what more warning you guys need.
Keep in mind this has happened more than once. After the first time this happened, people tried to say it was "all better now", "they changed their ways". Then it happened to them again.
Like Fred said: "fool me once..."I don't know what more warning you guys need.
National Sign Co. - Print
Merchant Member
Still makes my stomach curl over all the failures we had 4 years ago. It was not the 1005 it was the DOL lam that shrunk.
Over 200 units(full wraps) coast to coast.
They did make good by covering removals, print, materials, reinstall, machine production time, logistic and project management.
However the impact of the material failure will never be forgotten.
Pics attached....
Over 200 units(full wraps) coast to coast.
They did make good by covering removals, print, materials, reinstall, machine production time, logistic and project management.
However the impact of the material failure will never be forgotten.
Pics attached....
Attachments
Last edited:
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
Not to mention the damage to reputations and lost future business.
When a job fails, lots of customers figure "that's what I get for shopping around for a price instead of using someone who was higher but has a good reputation". They don't call you up to complain ... they just never come back and sometimes will tell others of their bad experience with you.
So my recommendation to you, if this is what you want, is to stay with Avery. They are the undisputed kings of material failure.
When a job fails, lots of customers figure "that's what I get for shopping around for a price instead of using someone who was higher but has a good reputation". They don't call you up to complain ... they just never come back and sometimes will tell others of their bad experience with you.
So my recommendation to you, if this is what you want, is to stay with Avery. They are the undisputed kings of material failure.
SignStudent
New Member
Wow, a picture is worth a thousand words. That is some scary stuff.
k.a.s.
New Member
I have never had to re-do anything because I used very little Avery, but like Techman I had an almost full roll the shrunk in the shop hanging on the rack. That said I have always refused to use the product, not b/c I think it will fail but mainly out of respect and in protest for those in the sign industry that they have ripped off. There are plenty of other brands to choose from, I really dont know why any shop would use it.
kevin
kevin
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
no ... EXCELLENT Post!
S'N'S
New Member
Merrit, did they give you an answer to what caused the problem, I found Oracal had a similar issue
http://www.oracal.com/products/_docs/prod-bulletins/Fallout_Product_Bulletin.pdf
I have been using Avery for the past 6yrs and have never had a problem, but our Avery vinyl doesn't come from the US and what I have seen is that it was only a problem in the US.....I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any other country having any problem.
I would like to know was it one particular Avery vinyl people had problems with. 500 / 700 / 800 /900 / wrap vinyl.
I had to replace vinyl on a van that had been repaired at the local panel shop and new who did the original work and that he used Calon cast. At first glance I thought it was around 5 years old the vinyl was peeling and splitting in quite a few spots..... until I looked at the vehicle ID, the van was 8 months old.
I have seen other jobs where other brands of calendered vinyl has been layered over cast and has failed.
Not saying anyone here hasn't had a problem, but pictures mean nothing to me without knowing EXACTLY how they were applied, on what, and what was used, etc. I could show pictures of failing vinyl, but is it the vinyls fault for the wrong vinyl being used for the wrong purpose or installed incorrectly. I cut vinyl for another signwriter (brushy) and he had a failure on a window (Multifix) but after speaking with him found out it he was wet installing using windex as the lube, the vinyl literally fell off the window. I have seen numerous posts of people wet installing reflective film when the manufacturers say specifically not to.
As I said, I'm not saying nobody had a problem, just would like to know with which vinyl and that there are other vinyls that can fail if not used right.
http://www.oracal.com/products/_docs/prod-bulletins/Fallout_Product_Bulletin.pdf
I have been using Avery for the past 6yrs and have never had a problem, but our Avery vinyl doesn't come from the US and what I have seen is that it was only a problem in the US.....I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any other country having any problem.
I would like to know was it one particular Avery vinyl people had problems with. 500 / 700 / 800 /900 / wrap vinyl.
I had to replace vinyl on a van that had been repaired at the local panel shop and new who did the original work and that he used Calon cast. At first glance I thought it was around 5 years old the vinyl was peeling and splitting in quite a few spots..... until I looked at the vehicle ID, the van was 8 months old.
I have seen other jobs where other brands of calendered vinyl has been layered over cast and has failed.
Not saying anyone here hasn't had a problem, but pictures mean nothing to me without knowing EXACTLY how they were applied, on what, and what was used, etc. I could show pictures of failing vinyl, but is it the vinyls fault for the wrong vinyl being used for the wrong purpose or installed incorrectly. I cut vinyl for another signwriter (brushy) and he had a failure on a window (Multifix) but after speaking with him found out it he was wet installing using windex as the lube, the vinyl literally fell off the window. I have seen numerous posts of people wet installing reflective film when the manufacturers say specifically not to.
As I said, I'm not saying nobody had a problem, just would like to know with which vinyl and that there are other vinyls that can fail if not used right.
iSign
New Member
forget the vinyl, at this point, it's the company...
if the Gambino family robbed all your neighbors blind...
does it really matter which Gambino wants to borrow the keys to your safe?
other then that... do a search for all those facts you want... they are widely reported in great detail, by several reputable sources... across the globe!
Techman
New Member
The next problem was the junk vinyl was sold on EBAY.
That's right. Sold on Ebay.
Who knows where the ebay magic shrinking vinyl came from. Maybe a knowing shop was unloading a problem. All I know is that magic shrinking vinyl was not limited to just what a supplier sent us.
here is an old post from a wood grain forum
"Beware of the Avery woodgrain product. It is not designed to last as also ..."
here is one from a kart forum
I will never use another Avery vinyl. ... Vinyl will shrink from heat. I have done many cars at a racing"
how about one from the vinyl forum,'
"I also had the shrinkage problems that everyone experienced with Avery a few years back and"
The point is... this was not an isolated case not limited to just sign makers.
Yes Avery has tried to recover its rep. But they could have recovered faster and completely if they would have fessed up and got it over with instead of the denial factor that went on for months even in the face of too many having similar failures..
That's right. Sold on Ebay.
Who knows where the ebay magic shrinking vinyl came from. Maybe a knowing shop was unloading a problem. All I know is that magic shrinking vinyl was not limited to just what a supplier sent us.
here is an old post from a wood grain forum
"Beware of the Avery woodgrain product. It is not designed to last as also ..."
here is one from a kart forum
I will never use another Avery vinyl. ... Vinyl will shrink from heat. I have done many cars at a racing"
how about one from the vinyl forum,'
"I also had the shrinkage problems that everyone experienced with Avery a few years back and"
The point is... this was not an isolated case not limited to just sign makers.
Yes Avery has tried to recover its rep. But they could have recovered faster and completely if they would have fessed up and got it over with instead of the denial factor that went on for months even in the face of too many having similar failures..
Dave Drane
New Member
I don't touch the stuff myself but why on earth did BP give Avery Dennison the rights to make their vinyl?? Maybe because they are of the same ilk, especially when it comes to spilling oil in the oceans!
4R Graphics
New Member
I have never been burned by Avery and was looking at going to the supercast 1005 wrap vinyl. I know that many here HATE Avery.
I have a question what products by 3m and Oracal (the companies that I use) are like the Avery supercast?
I have played with small samples of the supercast stuff. Here is what I noticed.
Thin, repositionable, and will stretch like a rubber band. I actually bridged a section that was at least 1.5 inches long and the vinyl was above the surface about 1 to 1.5 inches and I was able to heat and press it down and had no problems it has been on the test piece for a week indoors and no lifting at all (I have access to industrial heat and cool chambers and we took this bridged sample on aluminum and ran it up to 180 degrees and then ran it down in temp to -60 (yes negative 60 degrees) at -60 we took it out which caused it to frost over and set it on the table that was 3 days ago and again no change no lift. I am not saying that it wont fail but I did subject it to stuff it will never really experience.
Again to those who do not use Avery what products by 3m and Oracal can stretch to the extreme and not lift. I ask as we are getting more into the wraps and well want something that will perform well heavy contours and channels etc..(make instillation go quicker) but also have a reliability that we can sleep at night knowing we are good.
I have used 3m IJ180 but it just doesnt seem to conform around heavy contours and deep channels very well.
I have a question what products by 3m and Oracal (the companies that I use) are like the Avery supercast?
I have played with small samples of the supercast stuff. Here is what I noticed.
Thin, repositionable, and will stretch like a rubber band. I actually bridged a section that was at least 1.5 inches long and the vinyl was above the surface about 1 to 1.5 inches and I was able to heat and press it down and had no problems it has been on the test piece for a week indoors and no lifting at all (I have access to industrial heat and cool chambers and we took this bridged sample on aluminum and ran it up to 180 degrees and then ran it down in temp to -60 (yes negative 60 degrees) at -60 we took it out which caused it to frost over and set it on the table that was 3 days ago and again no change no lift. I am not saying that it wont fail but I did subject it to stuff it will never really experience.
Again to those who do not use Avery what products by 3m and Oracal can stretch to the extreme and not lift. I ask as we are getting more into the wraps and well want something that will perform well heavy contours and channels etc..(make instillation go quicker) but also have a reliability that we can sleep at night knowing we are good.
I have used 3m IJ180 but it just doesnt seem to conform around heavy contours and deep channels very well.
GAC05
Quit buggin' me
"I have used 3m IJ180 but it just doesnt seem to conform around heavy contours and deep channels very well. "
Next step up from 180 in the 3M line is IJ380 & 8580 matching lam.:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?22222IiNZ6uG_LHhBLAQbL72tJiEt6iNWJg2tJg2t222222--
Should be able to get a sample I would think.
wayne k
guam usa
Next step up from 180 in the 3M line is IJ380 & 8580 matching lam.:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?22222IiNZ6uG_LHhBLAQbL72tJiEt6iNWJg2tJg2t222222--
Should be able to get a sample I would think.
wayne k
guam usa
Joe Diaz
New Member
Don't waste your time questioning your fellow sign makers and their application methods. It's been unsuccessfully done by Avery, Distributors, and other sign folks who later learned the hard way. I'm sure they felt pretty silly defending Avery when it began failing on them too. Many of the sign makers who had problems had been applying vinyl graphics, with no problems, decades before hand. These people weren't spring chickens. Keep in mind the stuff was shrinking on the rolls. Applying it certain way had nothing to do with it.
And that's just it... Other have said it too... It's not so much the product failing that was the issue. The issue was Avery trying to blame its customers for their mess up. Only until the problem became so widespread that they couldn't possible deny it anymore did they attempt fix it, but they didn't go far enough, and to my knowledge, they have yet to issue an apology to the sign industry. Then a few years later it started happening again. Most learned their lesson the first time, other who gave them a second chance were not so lucky. So you say you have been using it for 4 or 5 years with no issues, just wait, others said that too.
And that's just it... Other have said it too... It's not so much the product failing that was the issue. The issue was Avery trying to blame its customers for their mess up. Only until the problem became so widespread that they couldn't possible deny it anymore did they attempt fix it, but they didn't go far enough, and to my knowledge, they have yet to issue an apology to the sign industry. Then a few years later it started happening again. Most learned their lesson the first time, other who gave them a second chance were not so lucky. So you say you have been using it for 4 or 5 years with no issues, just wait, others said that too.
Jillbeans
New Member
I too have felt the sting of Avery.
I wouldn't use it if given a free lifetime supply.
These "well it never happened to me" replies make me think of someone with brown teeth saying "Cancer? What's that? I've been smoking Camels since 1967 and they keep mailing me coupons for free smokes. They are great!"
Love....Jill
I wouldn't use it if given a free lifetime supply.
These "well it never happened to me" replies make me think of someone with brown teeth saying "Cancer? What's that? I've been smoking Camels since 1967 and they keep mailing me coupons for free smokes. They are great!"
Love....Jill
Custom_Grafx
New Member
Out of curiosity, someone earlier asked if there was any legal action like a class action against what happened... did that ever happen?
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
No. Avery eventually did a masterful job of dealing with complaints individually and through their distributors in relative secrecy. I always maintained that the matter should have been pursued as a product liability issue instead of a warranty issue. In that event, a class action would have been appropriate. Avery's negligence and subsequent cover up resulted in not just the failure of their vinyl, but also the loss of other brands in the same installations that had not failed in their own right. In addition, had it been explored, there was also significant damage to sign shop reputations and loss of future sales by those shops from their customers who experienced failures.