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Bought a plotter, software, and vinyl. Wondering where to start?

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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Truthfully, there is no sense in trying to talk sense to someone of this caliber. These people have their mind made up and regardless of what anyone says, they have a comeback. Usually it’s a lousy comeback, but to them it is sound reasoning.

I would just like to know why or how someone with absolutely no experience or inkling to this industry would think they can do it differently ?? Why is it that people with no knowledge in their head about something, suddenly becomes a type of authority and thinks vinyl 3, 4, 5 years and older vinyl is good, simply because it’s in a controlled area ?? Just about everything sold in a store, a warehouse or even our food has expiration dates on them. Even a ladder has a weight limit written on it and you can’t go past that or you void out the warranty. The vinyls, just like paints in the old days have a shelf life regardless of how well someone took care of it. Most manufactures tell you and it’s written on their literature, it’s only good for two years. Oh, excuse me, I forgot…….. these are people coming into the trade without any prior hands-on or first hand experience and they just resort to their own stupid common sense which they can’t even read the label on a pill box and we expect them to read up on the industry. How fuckingly stupid of me. What was I ever thinking ??

Someone wants to come into this industry and wants to gain all the knowledge to do business, but doesn’t want to take ten minutes of listening without biting the very hand which are trying to help.

Why come here at all for answers, if you already know the answers ??

You wanna go pound the pavements, or hand out calling cards ?? That’s the best way to becoming a successful sign company. That’s how I did it. The only thing different is…. I knew what I was selling. I knew the trade almost inside/out. I knew about permitting, electrical to a point, silk screening, pictorial art, hand lettering on various mediums with various based paints. I learned everything I could while growing up, going to school and then working in sign shops, until I could go out on my own. I didn’t walk up to someone and ask them if I could perform brain surgery on their kid because he acts dumb and I wanted to fix it for free until I get my name known in the neighborhood.

Your kind are always passing through these doors and I admire that you have the balls to ask these mind-blowing questions, but I cringe when I see how….. and in the fashion in which you ask them. You sound like a complete novice and come across as being a complete dolt representing an industry which you have no business being in and therefore are making a complete mockery of a profession that has taken some of us years and decades to build and you can ruin it in a few minutes for the rest of the companies in your area for a long time.

You could put such a bad taste in the public's mouth and mistrust because of your ignorance…… just because you thought and wanted to do something you knew nothing about.
What else do you want to know ??
 

SignManiac

New Member
Not sure why everyone is jumping on the poor guy. We all know the sign business is easy money. Not like working outside in the hot sun doing hard labor. Go for it!!!!!! Any idiot can push a button. That's why I got into sign making years ago. Easiest job in the world if you ask me. I've made millions spitting out stickers for people. Stickers make the world go round! Also made Calvin famous too...
 

Fanaticus

New Member
I started "learning" how signage is designed, produced, and sold when I first joined this forum, about 5 or 6 months ago. At first I was all gung-ho, gunna make and sell signs real quick.... it's easy, right? I posted a few designs on here and got ripped apart. These people will tell you how it is.

I have yet to produce a design or a sign for a customer other than myself. And even then, the public hasn't seen 99% of it. Why? Because I suck. But, I am making progress.

You really do want to get the books and study them. Practice, practice, practice. There is A LOT about designing and making signs that you never even think about until you're told about about. Then you start looking at other peoples signs and you can tell the difference between who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. It becomes very clear and obvious.

It's good your excited and motivated. You'll do well if you focus on it and learn the things you need to learn.

The majority part of my business (window tint distribution) was started because I wanted to tint my own car instead of pay someone $200 to do it. It became a hobby that I practiced on my cars over and over and over and on friends cars once I was good enough to not be embarrassed by my work. Over the last 6 years it's gone from tinting to distribution.... but started as a hobby.

I always suggest to people who are eager to start their own business to do something as a hobby for awhile first. First to see if they like it, and second to see if they can do it. Let the business part of it develop when it's ready.
 

shakey0818

New Member
not sure why everyone is jumping on the poor guy. We all know the sign business is easy money. Not like working outside in the hot sun doing hard labor. Go for it!!!!!! Any idiot can push a button. That's why i got into sign making years ago. Easiest job in the world if you ask me. I've made millions spitting out stickers for people. Stickers make the world go round! Also made calvin famous too...

:roflmao:
 

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signguy 55

New Member
I wonder if any other trade on the face of the earth has to deal with what we veterans have to deal with here. I have been at this 23 years, started hand lettering, was never satisfied with my work, but tried to keep improving. I bought my first small system in '91, slow as a snail, could only cut a 5" letter but I thought I was in heaven (no more painting DOT number and phone numbers).

I wonder if there are plumbing message boards where a guy goes to Lowe's and buys some pipe and some PVC cement and then goes on a message board and says "I've decided to be a plumber, what do I need to know, can you pros give me your thoughts please?"

For the new guys, you will never stop learning about this business, it is constantly evolving, if it changes as much in the next 25 years as it has in the last 25 I don't know where we will be.

I think you still need an eye for color, layout, letterforms, what style or font fits a particular message on a sign, etc. I still take out my camera and take a picture of an outstanding sign when I see it. I actually rubbed a multi colored blasted sign at a mall Saturday, I thought it was vinyl, but someone had hand painted it and done a wonderful job.

Just had to get that off my chest.
 

40ounce

New Member
Not sure why everyone is jumping on the poor guy. We all know the sign business is easy money. Not like working outside in the hot sun doing hard labor. Go for it!!!!!! Any idiot can push a button. That's why I got into sign making years ago. Easiest job in the world if you ask me. I've made millions spitting out stickers for people. Stickers make the world go round! Also made Calvin famous too...

this IS a joke.

"sign business is easy money" - hit your idiot button,
and make yourself an award sticker for
stupidest quote I have heard in a long time.
 

40ounce

New Member
^Stupid is as stupid does.

This coming from someone who's been around for a month.

ps. ever heard of sarcasm....?


yeah only a month.
that's why I am posting in the newbie forum.

sarcasm? what is that? I have NO idea what that is. Could someone
who has been on this message board since 2007 please tell me what sarcasm is.

I'll bet you have more Facebook friends than anyone on here too.
 
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Techman

New Member
yes my fellow letter makers.
There are the few who will buy themselves a dream job only to find out it is more than just picing up some worn out equipment.
This same thing is happening in the CNC world too. In fact there is a long thread on another CNC software board where there a more than a few rationalizing selling their cnc work for just pennies. Some saying this is just a hobby for them, or some saying they do not need to charge more because they are at home, while they purchase outdated equipment.
 

sar bossier

New Member
ignore the posts about your price being too low....you make it lower and people will slam you for selling too cheap and destroying the market.

If your competition for cut vinyl is three months behind and you can sell cut vinyl for $20 psf please let me know where it the heck souixland is. I'll be on my way there monday and would like tell my family where i'll be.

me too!! I wanna go!!!
 

OldPaint

New Member
1st off, i see a lot of you telling this guy 3-4 year old vinyl is NO GOOD. then follow that with vinyl on the shelf is only good for 2 years. now i aint no brain surgeon or mat=a=ma-titian, BUT.... IF the cheap vinly is advertised, lets say SHINE-RITE is good for up to 6 YEARS....once applied. then why would it only be good for 2 years on the shelf???? and lets move to HP VINLY...AVERY 900 SERIES..says it good for 10 YEARS!!!!!
i have boxed and packaged 3M 7125, 15" x 10 YD ROLLS, i got from a place going outa business........5-6 YEARS AGO, still sitting here. odd colors but for some jobs its ok.
NOW..........$50 FOR ALL 4 NUMBERS on a demo derby car???? you really need not be in business!!!!! that is GIVING IT AWAY...and at that rate , you wont be doing this very long!! maybe thats a good thing!!!hehehehehehehe. i do 21-24" tall numbers for race cars, i cut, weed , tape..and hand to customer....for $20-25 EACH!!!!!!! I dont think you will be in this line of work long. just long enough to ruin prices in your area for REAL SIGN PEOPLE.
 

wildside

New Member
I didn’t walk up to someone and ask them if I could perform brain surgery on their kid because he acts dumb and I wanted to fix it for free until I get my name known in the neighborhood.


that should be the award winner for the best quote i have heard in a long time right there!!:rock-n-roll:
 

sar bossier

New Member
Joe, a couple of things here. First and foremost, if you give signs away for free, it tells people that the value of a sign is little or nothing, so in the future, you will have no pricing power with anyone you're giving free signs to. It also takes work away from someone else that does do signs for free. You run around town and give free signs to everyone and somewhere out there, there's someone trying to make a living making signs, who's now lost all his paying sign work.

You mentioned your overhead is low. What difference does that make? I'll tell you what it implies and what others are picking up in your words. It implies that you are going to do things really cheap because you don't have any overhead and you didn't pay much for your materials and equipment. The problem is that you should be charging what the market will pay, not what you want to charge because you have no overhead. If a sign has a perceived market value of $100 and you're charging people $35 for it, then you're destroying the market.

You are destroying it because you have no overhead. However, if you get flooded with work because of your low prices and you are forced to grow into a space outside of your home, you'll have to pay rent, utilities and wages just like others. So you're $35 for a $100 sign is going to put you in the poor house. If you call your now established clients that love your $35 signs and tell them that you need to raise the prices to $90 to cover your expenses, they'll drop you so fast it's not funny. Then, you'll have a new space, with a lease, and bills to pay, and no work.

You need to learn to price from day one. You price for the market, not for what you have in it. If I have a drop from a job that works for another sign, should I not charge the new client for the material for the sign?

Let's say the material is $200 for a 4'x8' sheet. That's $6.25 per sq. ft. cost. So the cost to the customer should be at least $12.50 per. sq.ft. Now, let's say I have a 4' x 4' drop left over from a job and it needs vinyl lettering. If the vinyl lettering price is $200, should I just charge them $200 and then give them the material because it was paid for from another job? Or should my price be $400, $200 for the vinyl and $200 for the substrate?

You don't give things away. You charge the market value. Not YOUR perceived value, but the MARKET perceived value.

If you don't get your pricing straight from the beginning, you won't have to worry about making $500 a month. The first time you get a job that has 3 colors in it and you don't have any of them (yes, believe it or not, people do actually want signs made from colors you don't have in stock), you'll have to buy 3 rolls of material. There goes your profit.

I'm not suggesting you not give it a whirl, but I would suggest you take another look at your approach. I think you're making some pretty large mistakes in your direction.

Just my 2 cents.

My hat's off to you, sir! AWESOME!! :U Rock::goodpost::rock-n-roll:
 

JKADesigns

New Member
1st off, i see a lot of you telling this guy 3-4 year old vinyl is NO GOOD. then follow that with vinyl on the shelf is only good for 2 years. now i aint no brain surgeon or mat=a=ma-titian, BUT.... IF the cheap vinly is advertised, lets say SHINE-RITE is good for up to 6 YEARS....once applied. then why would it only be good for 2 years on the shelf???? and lets move to HP VINLY...AVERY 900 SERIES..says it good for 10 YEARS!!!!!
i have boxed and packaged 3M 7125, 15" x 10 YD ROLLS, i got from a place going outa business........5-6 YEARS AGO, still sitting here. odd colors but for some jobs its ok.
NOW..........$50 FOR ALL 4 NUMBERS on a demo derby car???? you really need not be in business!!!!! that is GIVING IT AWAY...and at that rate , you wont be doing this very long!! maybe thats a good thing!!!hehehehehehehe. i do 21-24" tall numbers for race cars, i cut, weed , tape..and hand to customer....for $20-25 EACH!!!!!!! I dont think you will be in this line of work long. just long enough to ruin prices in your area for REAL SIGN PEOPLE.

Thank you for both pieces of advice. This will be the only demo car I charge $50 for, the rest of them will be more as per your advice. I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

As to the CNC posting, I fear the same thing. I would like to get into CNC at some point, but the income wouldn't justify the outgo.

As to all the people thinking that I am going to run all the other sign makers out of business in my area by charging low prices, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in making a good profit on every job so my wife and I can go on regular vacations and do the things we like to do without having a jobs 60 hours a week. I already mow a few lawns for money, might as well put a few signs together.

I already have people telling me that my prices are too high- because they can go online and buy the same thing cheaper. Example- a wall art "LIVE LAUGH LOVE" in whatever font they want, embellishments they want, (remember, I'm not designing this), I told a friend I wanted $25 for that. She asked why she should pay me $25 when she can buy the same thing online for only $12... That's ridiculous. I just say that not everyone has the time to go online and find the websites that sell that and what have you. Very few people, relatively, know how to use Google and find exactly what they want, nor will they take the time to do so, unless they're already broke, poor and have a lot of time on their hands.

I know that building a portfolio will be the most important thing right now besides finding sign making books and studying them thoroughly. Thank you all for your input and your time, even though some of you have been less than helpful, it's still worth my time to read through and find the gems of wisdom that can help with what I'm doing.
 

JKADesigns

New Member
Joe, a couple of things here. First and foremost, if you give signs away for free, it tells people that the value of a sign is little or nothing, so in the future, you will have no pricing power with anyone you're giving free signs to. It also takes work away from someone else that does do signs for free. You run around town and give free signs to everyone and somewhere out there, there's someone trying to make a living making signs, who's now lost all his paying sign work.

You mentioned your overhead is low. What difference does that make? I'll tell you what it implies and what others are picking up in your words. It implies that you are going to do things really cheap because you don't have any overhead and you didn't pay much for your materials and equipment. The problem is that you should be charging what the market will pay, not what you want to charge because you have no overhead. If a sign has a perceived market value of $100 and you're charging people $35 for it, then you're destroying the market.

You are destroying it because you have no overhead. However, if you get flooded with work because of your low prices and you are forced to grow into a space outside of your home, you'll have to pay rent, utilities and wages just like others. So you're $35 for a $100 sign is going to put you in the poor house. If you call your now established clients that love your $35 signs and tell them that you need to raise the prices to $90 to cover your expenses, they'll drop you so fast it's not funny. Then, you'll have a new space, with a lease, and bills to pay, and no work.

You need to learn to price from day one. You price for the market, not for what you have in it. If I have a drop from a job that works for another sign, should I not charge the new client for the material for the sign?

Let's say the material is $200 for a 4'x8' sheet. That's $6.25 per sq. ft. cost. So the cost to the customer should be at least $12.50 per. sq.ft. Now, let's say I have a 4' x 4' drop left over from a job and it needs vinyl lettering. If the vinyl lettering price is $200, should I just charge them $200 and then give them the material because it was paid for from another job? Or should my price be $400, $200 for the vinyl and $200 for the substrate?

You don't give things away. You charge the market value. Not YOUR perceived value, but the MARKET perceived value.

If you don't get your pricing straight from the beginning, you won't have to worry about making $500 a month. The first time you get a job that has 3 colors in it and you don't have any of them (yes, believe it or not, people do actually want signs made from colors you don't have in stock), you'll have to buy 3 rolls of material. There goes your profit.

I'm not suggesting you not give it a whirl, but I would suggest you take another look at your approach. I think you're making some pretty large mistakes in your direction.

Just my 2 cents.

Whats the best way for me to figure out how to price cut vinyl aside from calling some of the other sign makers in the area and seeing what they're charging? I'm thinking about getting a subscription to Signcraft and a copy of their pricing guide. Thanks for your input!
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
OP [Joe in this case], even the distributors are forced to return stock after being on the shelf over a certain amount of time. It has to be rotated because of adhesives. Whether they are in a controlled environment or not, they must be rotated.

Ever wonder why Fellers and some of the other big guys advertise their stock turnover is the largest in the area ?? That's so you aren't buying any old stock, thus the biggest reason for stamping the month, year and lot numbers on each and every roll.

If you get a roll that is marked as being older than 2 years, you can refuse it and they can actually get in trouble for selling you old stock.

Once the stuff is peeled from the backer and the adhesive is strongly squeegeed down, does your 3, 5, 9 year warranty go into effect.


I have some very old vinyls laying around the shop from possibly a special order color or something and they literally are shrinking right off the backing paper. While this stuff is not squeegeed down to something they are continuing to shrink at a rather rapid pace. If someone has lots of old vinyl around, they need to look better into how they order the stuff, or just suck it up. If you find a good area, it will certainly go down and adhere.... it's the cutting of a pre-shrunk vinyl that has the manufacture's worried.
 

thehamsterman

New Member
This guy sounds like my boss...

"lets give this customer his sign for cost. he knows a lot of people and will get us more business"

me "more business that we have to give away at cost?"

"..."
 

iSign

New Member
If someone has lots of old vinyl around, they need to look better into how they order the stuff, or just suck it up. .

nahh... you don't need to suck it up, when someone else can do that for ya...

...just find an old SW plotter in the "skip" behind Andy's shop or some such... & package deal it to some sucka for $2000.00 smackers!!


no seriously... lawn boy? you are a funny fellow... you don't know how many times on here I have called bulls#it on some clueless noobie for having ALL the perfectly wrong notions, asking ALL the perfectly unpopular questions, and responding with ALL the perfectly wrong attitude...

...and in all those cases... IT'S JUST TOO PERFECT, SO I REALIZE IT HAS TO BE A TROLL... SOME SEASONED SIGN VETERAN, FAMILIAR WITH THE WOLF PACK ANARCHY THAT IS AN INTERNET FORUM... AND PLAYING US ALL FOR HIS ENTERTAINMENT...

So, I've called out many a clueless n00b, telling them I just don't believe ANY n00b can really be THAT CLUELESS... but, every time the poor sucka turns out to be real... and to be really clueless.. and then I sorta feel bad for doubting he could be real...

...so I gave you the benefit of the doubt for 24 hours... BUT NOW, I CALL BULLS#IT... NOBODY IS AS PHUQIN' CLUELESS, INFLAMMATORY AND ILL ADVISED AS TO BE WHERE YOU ARE, BELIEVING WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BELIEVE... AND BE FOR REAL... BULLS#IT!!
 

CheapVehicleWrap

New Member
This guy sounds like my boss...

"lets give this customer his sign for cost. he knows a lot of people and will get us more business"

me "more business that we have to give away at cost?"

"..."

A true professional will go one step further and actually loose money on the job. Speaking of Which, where is his Moshness lately?
 

iSign

New Member
A true professional will go one step further and actually loose money on the job. Speaking of Which, where is his Moshness lately?

I think he had to take time out to lose money on his farm that he dangled in front of us as the ace in the hole that justified losing money on his signs...

I mean, I feel bad if he is, and hope the floods didn't really turn his operation into the red... but I sure wondered why he counted his bushel profits so often, so publicly and so early in the season...

what's that saying? "pride before a fall" ?
 
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